Why, what purpose evil in the world?

miriam

Fri, Dec 17 2004, 9:10 am

Reallly good question. The first thought that comes to mind is the parable that life is like a tapestry. We experience life the way the back of a tapestry looks. It's all messed up and it's hard to see where the threads are. It doesn't look like any thing special or pretty. Hashem (and we will too when Moshiach comes) sees the other side. He knows exactly where all the threads and yarn is going. It's crystal clear and obvious to Him. All the evil in the world has to be here for some reason. We may never find all the answers. But it is comforting to me to know that there is another side of this tapestry. Sometimes we get a glimpse of how life works out for a reason.

Tefila

Fri, Dec 17 2004, 9:13 am

So why do bad things happen to good people.... well I have too, literally been grappling with this idea conc a terrible tragedy that happend to us.
And I still don't know the answer.... But We are not Hashem so our vision is limited! But there are a few points to think about conc someone who passes on as a child or b/4 there 'seemed' time, it is said the Neshama had fulfilled it's mission and wasn't needed on this world anymore, why it happens to specific familys I don't think anyone can really answer!! We can also look at it that suffering had to be accomplished somewhere sometime, and by it being down here on earth the person is ensured an ultimate spot in Gan Eden. And lastly conc the Holocaust the Lubavitcher Rebbe said they suffered terribly we cannot answer thier questions conc why did it happen or where was G-D? But with compassion to try and bring them back. Also Tzaddikim suffer in this world, Rashaim in the world to come and what sometimes seems like a terrible suffering could indeed be a blessing
There are books etc dealing with this very subject but until someone c"v experiances it it becomes a whole different story and it is translated very very differently
As long as Moshiach hasn't arrived in a literal sense etc we are still in Golus with all the pain etc, so yes We Want Moshiach Now Exclamation

Hoped I helped somewhat
p.s. Avigail is a beautiful name I love it Smile

AweSumThenSum

Fri, Dec 17 2004, 11:28 am

there is no understanding it fully, and I dont really wanna understand it cuz that means I'd be dead (according to the theory that once people die, they are shown Hashem's plan). however, one way to be able to accept it is to think of it this way: the more we suffer here, the greater our portion of olam habah/gan eden will be. there are those who believe that we will be punished for our sins, and then we will be able to enjoy gan eden. however, there are those who believe that the more we suffer on this earth, not only will we get more gan eden, but we will also be meted out less severe punishment for our sins.
the reverse can be applied to help us understand why good things happen to bad people. the more they enjoy here, the less they'll get up there.
ok, so now I have a ? of my own!! what about people who seem to have a good life on this earth, and they are good people (shomrei torah umitzvos, and good bein adam l'chaveyro too). does that mean that they will get less reward in gan eden just because they had it good here too?

Motek

Sun, Dec 19 2004, 9:07 am

that's one problem with the reward/punishment-Gan Eden/gehinom understanding of our purpose here ... (see thread on Chassidic Woman where this is discussed)

as to the question of this thread, the following was said by the Chofetz Chaim:

when Yosef said, "Ani Yosef" (I am Yosef), all the brothers' numerous questions disappeared. They had been so puzzled by all the strange things that had been happening, being accused of being spies, being treated differently than all the other people who came to buy food. All it took were those two words, Ani Yosef, for all questions to fall away.

So too, when Hashem will say, "Ani Hashem," all our questions over the millenia will fall away. Everything will be clarified and understood.

When we trust that Hashem has a plan, and there's a purpose to it all, it becomes easier to cope.

gryp

Mon, Dec 20 2004, 8:58 am

from chabad.org

What the Rebbe Said (And Didn't Say) About the Holocaust
By Yanki Tauber

The Lubavitcher Rebbe is widely recognized as one who played a singular role in defining post-Holocaust Jewry. But what did the Rebbe say and teach about that event itself?

Like millions of his generation, the Lubavitcher Rebbe was personally touched by the Holocaust. His younger brother, DovBer, was shot to death and thrown into a mass grave, as were tens of thousands of other Jews in a series of massacres conducted by the Germans shortly after their occupation of Dnepropetrovsk in the fall of 1941. A beloved grandmother and other family members were also killed. The Rebbe's wife lost her younger sister Sheina, who perished in Treblinka together with her husband and their adopted son.

In his writings and discussions on the subject, the Rebbe rejected all theological explanations for the Holocaust. What greater conceit -- the Rebbe would say -- and what greater heartlessness, can there be than to give a "reason" for the death and torture of millions of innocent men, women and children? Can we presume to assume that an explanation small enough to fit inside the finite bounds of human reason can explain a horror of such magnitute? We can only concede that there are things that lie beyond the finite ken of the human mind. Echoing his father-in-law, the Rebbe would say: It is not my task to justify G-d on this. Only G-d Himself can answer for what He allowed to happen. And the only answer we will accept, said the Rebbe, is the immediate and complete Redemption that will forever banish evil from the face of the earth and bring to light the intrinsic goodness and perfection of G-d's creation.

To those who argued that the Holocaust disproves the existence of G-d or His providence over our lives, the Rebbe said: On the contrary -- the Holocaust has decisively disproven any possible faith in a human-based morality. In pre-war Europe, it was the German people who epitomized culture, scientific advance and philosophic morality. And these very same people perpetrated the most vile atrocities known to human history! If nothing else, the Holocaust has taught us that a moral and civilized existence is possible only through the belief in and the acceptance of the Divine authority.

The Rebbe also said: Our outrage, our incessant challenge to G-d over what has occurred -- this itself is a most powerful attestation to our belief in Him and our faith in His goodness. Because if we did not, underneath it all, possess this faith, what is it that we are outraged at? The blind workings of fate? The random arrangement of quarks that make up the universe? It is only because we believe in G-d, because we are convinced that there is right and there is wrong and that right must, and ultimately will, triumph, that we cry out, as Moses did: "Why, my G-d, have you done evil to Your people?!"

But the most important thing about the Holocaust to the Rebbe was not how we do or do not understand it, nor, even, how we memorialize its victims, but what we do about it. If we allow the pain and despair to dishearten us from raising a new generation of Jews with a strong commitment to their Jewishness, then Hilter's "final solution" will be realized, G-d forbid. But if we rebuild, if we raise a generation proud of and committed to their Jewishness, we will have triumphed.

Motek

Mon, Dec 20 2004, 10:45 am

R' Paltiel was giving a shiur and was discussing yisurim and said that the difference between a person who emerges bitter and a person who emerges b'simcha is in appreciating the value of the experience. The Fr. Rebbe said he wouldn't choose to experience Spalerko prison again, but he wouldn't trade away the experience he had for anything.

A woman asked R' Paltiel a question. She said she had lost a child and felt there must be a middle ground between anger and joy.

R' Paltiel (after saying that he too had lost a child, and asking her whether she really wanted him to respond) said:

"You've said how YOU feel. Have you thought about how the TORAH wants you to feel?
People think Torah only tells them what to DO and not what to FEEL. This is wrong. Torah does tell us what to do with these feelings. Mourning has its limits. Yes, mourn. Then move on. The pain over the loss will always be there, but in the present, one needs to be b'simcha.
When it comes to yisurim people tend to say - 'You don't know how I feel, and you have no right to tell me what to do!'
This is NOT Torah!
And therapy, which is supposedly to help you deal with the pain, allows you to wallow in it.
There were parents of a 40 year old woman and mother of 10 who died. The father said to the mother: redt nit, un tracht nit (don't talk about it and don't think about it). I.e. Get on with life."

(all the above was from R' Paltiel. May we only have reason to rejoice!)

Motek

Mon, Dec 20 2004, 3:59 pm

A Lubavitcher couple we know, whose sick child passed away, went to a weekend retreat for bereaved parents, run by a frum though not-chasidic organization. The point that those running the retreat emphasized was G-d's ways are perfect, about Olam Haba, etc.

Another Lubavitcher woman at that retreat brought up the story about the Baal Shem Tov and the woman who had finally had a child but then the child died at age 2, and how the Besht explained what the child had been in a previous life and how all this neshama had to do was come back to this world for 2 years to be nursed by a Jewish mother. The Lub. woman wanted to bring out the point that everything Hashem does is good, etc.

the reaction of the non-Lubavitchers was: that's too high a level for us Confused

the non-Lub. were not talking about Hashem's goodness and how everything that comes from G-d is good

the Lubavitcher was bringing out the point in Igeres Ha'Kodesh, #11, in which we are all urged to live our lives conscious of the truth that "No evil descends from above, and everything is good"

but they couldn't hear it

(yet another example illustrating the vast difference in outlook between Chabad and non-chasidim)

Rivka

Tue, Dec 28 2004, 7:38 am

Quote:

The Lub. woman wanted to bring out the point that everything Hashem does is good, etc.

the reaction of the non-Lubavitchers was: that's too high a level for us Confused

the non-Lub. were not talking about Hashem's goodness and how everything that comes from G-d is good

All not lubavitchers?? I don't think so and earlier you wrote about the not lubavitch retreat:

Quote:

he point that those running the retreat emphasized was G-d's ways are perfect, about Olam Haba, etc.

This isn't saying Hashem isn't good?? Everyone learns things differently and everyone does things differently, some people can't just hear that everything Hashem does is good and there is no evil, if everyone were the same then there would be only one person on this world. The way I took your post was that you are putting Lubavitch on a pedestal of superiority at the same time as trampling on those who aren't Lubavitch coz to you they are imperfect and obviously wrong.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Dec 28 2004, 10:39 am

I think thye're just at a different stage of mourning.

It is said that one cannot recover from loss of a child, b/c when older people pass on, it is natural, no matter how sad and difficult. The other way is annatural and there is never true recovery for the parents.

Actually, I red an article, confirming the wisdom of Torah's system - shiva, shloshim and a year peroids of mourning. After that H' tells us to get back to life.

(By the way, during the shiva period, the mourners are required to talk about what happened, what a wonderful person passed on, to wallow on the outside. One is not allowed to do anything that will make them happy - even hold a baby!!!)

Who knows how & when those parents lost their kids - it's a very sencitive issue.

I have a friend who lost a child. every time his name is mentioned, a shadow passes over her eyes. it's been 8 yrs. & she has enough bitahon for al of us and some more.

Going back to the original question:
I once red an interesting article.
It was saying that the worst things in this world are done by people, those who did it and the onlookers. The entire world knew about the Shoa, but NOBODY did ANYTHING to help us. The entire world now knows who the paelstinians are, but instead of stopping them, they give them more cash.
This is ridiculuos!!!!
Tru, if we were perfect, they wouldn't be able to harm us. But still, it's people who do it.

Another point: it is said that when Moshiah comes, our enemies will wonder and praise the Almightly Lord. Why not the Jews??? B/c we don't even know half of their plans, and how they fail. But the goim know of every single one of their evil schemes. And they're the ones who see H's hand at work, stopping them.
Actually, the number of terr.acts that is prevented in Israel is vrey great, but public is not aware of it.

We have much to be greatful for, and have to realise that we're protected from so much more than we know.

9/11 point
The terrorists planned to hijack 10 airplanes. But only 4 succeded and only 3 reached their destination, B'H.
A friend's relative was on an airplain on 9/11. Their flight never took off, and when the passangers were dissmissed, she said that she noticed several young arab-looking man nervously looking around and dissapearing immedietly at the first chance.

I suggest: http://www.hatzalah.net/ buy their book "Even in the darkest moments"
you will see how every single one of them was protected by Yad HaShem in the darkest moments, when they all were saying "Good-bye" to their lives and Shema.
(if the link doesn't work, pm me - I know a person here who can arrange it to be mailed to you).

the best Bitahon 'booster' I've ever seen in my life!!!!!