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Appropriate Punishment
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Israeli Mother




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 13 2010, 2:33 pm
I feel that once the rebbe has punished him you don't have to punish him as well. You are your son's only advocate and your job is to parent him, not to be his second rebbe. I would speak to your son and ask him why he did what he did -- he may not have done it out of pure chutzpa -- and then explain to your son why his rebbe had to punish him and how the rebbe felt when your son behaved this way.

I think that being punished in school is enough and you should not add to it. What if your son did something wrong or was chutzpadik at home; would you then expect to write a note to his rebbe for his rebbe to punish him in school? Confused
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 13 2010, 5:03 pm
Ruchel wrote:
marina wrote:
Ruchel wrote:
Well. THIS is one of the pros of Jewish school. Even in a good public school I don't think anyone would have paid attention to a small thing like this.


it's not a little thing at all, ruchel. The teacher has a system and is deducting points ( Always- I have no idea how you know what the system is, but a system that takes away points is just as good as anyother. For example, if they start out with 10 points and lose or gain depending on their behavior, etc.) and the kid is laughing and clapping when the teacher is giving out the punishment? That is very disruptive and annoying to teachers and it would absolutely be noticed in most public schools.


I can see teachers just rolling their eyes. It's just clapping/laughing. It happened when a teacher threw a pupil out of class.


No way. Anyone who has taught elementary school boys will agree with me, I guarantee it.

Think about it this way. The rebbe has to teach 25 7 and 8 year old boys. That means: he has to control their behavior and he has to teach them the material and he has to teach them derech eretz and middos. And he has to do this day after day after day. 7 & 8 year old boys are not easy to handle at all. Morever, the school probably has no special ed program or behavioral specialists. That means the Rebbi is teaching kids of varying levels with a variety of issues-some may be genuises and bored, some may have ADHD and can't sit still, some may have cognitive difficulties. And most likely, this Rebbi has never taken any formal psychology or child development classes or behavior management techniques, he is just doing his best with what he has.

That can be chaotic. But this Rebbi has a plan- he has some sort of system. Maybe the class has ten points and those are for extra recess and they can earn or lose points depending on their behavior. Maybe the class is split up into teams and the teams earn and lose points and the best teams get a prize. Whatever, at least he is trying. And then there is this kid who is laughing while the rebbi is taking away a point and making fun of his whole system and efforts. The other kids now will not take it as seriously. I feel the rebbi's pain and I would be annoyed, upset also.

He has every right to call the kid's parents, to write a letter, to have the kid write a letter. In the public schools I taught, parents would be summoned for much smaller things.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 13 2010, 5:09 pm
Israeli Mother wrote:
I feel that once the rebbe has punished him you don't have to punish him as well. You are your son's only advocate and your job is to parent him, not to be his second rebbe. I would speak to your son and ask him why he did what he did -- he may not have done it out of pure chutzpa -- and then explain to your son why his rebbe had to punish him and how the rebbe felt when your son behaved this way.

I think that being punished in school is enough and you should not add to it. What if your son did something wrong or was chutzpadik at home; would you then expect to write a note to his rebbe for his rebbe to punish him in school? Confused


As a former teacher, the above attitude is so upsetting. The school and the home are both responsible for teaching the child middos and when the home does not support the school, the child will not improve in his behavior. You are essentially telling him he can behave however he wants in school, there will be no consquences when he comes home.

We had parents who, when their child was suspended from school, they would just let the kid stay home and play videogames. Of course, the child acted out more so he would get suspended more often. Whaddaya know.

What if your kid broke my window with his baseball and I yelled at him? Would that be enough? Would you say, hey that mean old lady yelled at you, sweetie pie and so now you can have an icecream?

My son had some trouble in one teacher's class this past year and was acting up and being silly. After hearing about this on parent-teacher night, I immediately instituted a system in which the teacher sends home a chart with stickers depending on how he does. If there is one sticker, he gets 20 min. of computer time, 2 stickers, 40 minutes of computer time and no stickers- grounded for the rest of the day. Two months later, the teacher tells us he is one of the best-behaved kids in her class.
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Israeli Mother




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2010, 3:24 am
marina wrote:
Israeli Mother wrote:
I feel that once the rebbe has punished him you don't have to punish him as well. ...


As a former teacher, the above attitude is so upsetting. The school and the home are both responsible for teaching the child middos and when the home does not support the school, the child will not improve in his behavior. You are essentially telling him he can behave however he wants in school, there will be no consquences when he comes home. ... What if your kid broke my window with his baseball and I yelled at him? Would that be enough? Would you say, hey that mean old lady yelled at you, sweetie pie and so now you can have an icecream?


You have misunderstood my position. I am probably much stricter with my children than most other mothers on this list and I certainly don't advocate saying "oh, it's okay you broke a window. No problem." However, I do hold by natural consequences so I wouldn't ground them -- I'd just make them apologize and pay for the window.

However, if my child was punished by a rebbe I told him that I first asked him what happened in his own words, as I'd already heard the rebbe's side. Then, after I had found out what happened from both sides I explained the rebbe's position to my son and tried to help him to see where his behavior/thinking got him in trouble. If the rebbe had not understood what really happened, and we all know that sometimes the teacher or rebbe cannot have super-human powers and be everywhere or see everything, then I also spoke to the rebbe to explain my child's side of the story.

If my child got punished by the rebbe, I did not say that the rebbe was wrong, but instead that whatever the punishment was had to be done [like writing sentences, staying late, etc.]. In other words, the rebbe has the right to run his classroom and he is the boss there and if he gives a punishment it speaks for itself.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2010, 3:58 am
marina wrote:
Ruchel wrote:
marina wrote:
Ruchel wrote:
Well. THIS is one of the pros of Jewish school. Even in a good public school I don't think anyone would have paid attention to a small thing like this.


it's not a little thing at all, ruchel. The teacher has a system and is deducting points ( Always- I have no idea how you know what the system is, but a system that takes away points is just as good as anyother. For example, if they start out with 10 points and lose or gain depending on their behavior, etc.) and the kid is laughing and clapping when the teacher is giving out the punishment? That is very disruptive and annoying to teachers and it would absolutely be noticed in most public schools.


I can see teachers just rolling their eyes. It's just clapping/laughing. It happened when a teacher threw a pupil out of class.


No way. Anyone who has taught elementary school boys will agree with me, I guarantee it.

Think about it this way. The rebbe has to teach 25 7 and 8 year old boys. That means: he has to control their behavior and he has to teach them the material and he has to teach them derech eretz and middos. And he has to do this day after day after day. 7 & 8 year old boys are not easy to handle at all. Morever, the school probably has no special ed program or behavioral specialists. That means the Rebbi is teaching kids of varying levels with a variety of issues-some may be genuises and bored, some may have ADHD and can't sit still, some may have cognitive difficulties. And most likely, this Rebbi has never taken any formal psychology or child development classes or behavior management techniques, he is just doing his best with what he has.

That can be chaotic. But this Rebbi has a plan- he has some sort of system. Maybe the class has ten points and those are for extra recess and they can earn or lose points depending on their behavior. Maybe the class is split up into teams and the teams earn and lose points and the best teams get a prize. Whatever, at least he is trying. And then there is this kid who is laughing while the rebbi is taking away a point and making fun of his whole system and efforts. The other kids now will not take it as seriously. I feel the rebbi's pain and I would be annoyed, upset also.

He has every right to call the kid's parents, to write a letter, to have the kid write a letter. In the public schools I taught, parents would be summoned for much smaller things.


What you describe would be the same here, except the class would be mixed, and more like 35/40 kids.

Of course the teacher will be annoyed. But the kids are not insulting him or each other or hitting each other or throwing stuff at him or tearing papers with a bad grade or bullying another pupil. All this is common in many, many schools.
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raizy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2010, 6:21 pm
allergypro and valleymom. u are both so right. a 7 yr old child is not yet mature to realize he is doing something chutzpedik. he is just upset that his hard earned points is being taken away.
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HelloEverybody




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 17 2010, 12:44 pm
How does one 'ground' a 7 year old?
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chaylizi




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 17 2010, 12:46 pm
raizy wrote:
allergypro and valleymom. u are both so right. a 7 yr old child is not yet mature to realize he is doing something chutzpedik. he is just upset that his hard earned points is being taken away.


my 7 year old knows exactly what being chutzpadik is. she also knows that if she is, she will be punished. she is not often chutzpadik.
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prettyone




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 17 2010, 1:08 pm
raizy wrote:
allergypro and valleymom. u are both so right. a 7 yr old child is not yet mature to realize he is doing something chutzpedik. he is just upset that his hard earned points is being taken away.


a seven year old is definately old enough to know what chutzpah is.

I think parents should ignore most things kids do. You cant win them all. But one thing that should never ever be tolerated is chutzpah. So when picking your fights this one should be it.
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