To the ppl living in EY- do you take full advantage?

life'sgreat

Mon, Mar 01 2010, 10:25 pm

Tova wrote:

We'll have to disagree here. We are a kollel couple and not wealthy by any means, but if I spent $1,000 (which when I was traveling was actually a good price) on a ticket I am not pinching pennies. If so, taking such a trip (which was SO important and invigorating for me at the time) would have been an utterly irresponsible thing to do.

If you (general you) cannot afford the extra 5 dollars slash 20 shekels you (general again) are bargaining down, guess what? The cab driver can "afford" the reduction in price even less. $5 to an American is worth much less than 20 shekels to an Israeli.

Regarding bargaining, there is also a halachic concept of ona'ah. Putting pressure on someone to lower a price can actually be assur.

Again, I abhor bargaining and would NEVER do it. I'm stam saying that affording a trip to Israel doesn't mean that one has the extra money to throw around. And I wasn't referring to one taxi for 5 dollars more, but the general idea of if you can afford a vacation, you can afford more of this or that.

torahtots

Mon, Mar 15 2010, 2:34 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Marion wrote:

ClaRivka wrote:

do you take advantage of the kosel and mekomos hakedoshim and the general atmosphere?

No. The kotel is a retaining wall and has no inherent kedusha.

Huh? Chazal say the Shechina hasn't left the kotel. If it has no kedusha, why do some pasken that it is assur to touch and/or put your fingers in any holes in the kotel? And it's the closest we can get to Har Habayit, which has such kedusha that someone tamei is chayav kareis even today to go there.

As far as the original question, ITA that we don't take full advantage because when you are living here you have everyday life to take care of. Travel is also expensive for a family when you are on a budget.

But I do often remind myself of being in EY and teach my children to appreciate it too. My dh, who was born here, also appreciates it. We also appreciate things like the more ruchniusdik atmosphere we are able to live in.

And I came here without a million dollars...

I've never heard of it being assur to touch the kotel.
The kotel is not the closest we can get to Har Habayit. First of all, the tunnels under the kotel get closer, and secondly, you COULD go to Har Habayit if you wanted to. (It's complicated because of nidda but it can be done.)
And if no one who is tamei could go to the kotel, then no one could go to the kotel because everyone is tamei!

And Tova - Sometimes you know what price a cab ride should cost and a driver is trying to take advantage of you because you're a tourist (or an oleh with an accent). It's nice to want to help the Israeli economy, but you shouldn't have to be a frier (sucker) and get cheated either. A driver wouldn't bargain if it wasn't worth it to him to take you for that price. He'd just say forget it. Same with bargaining when you buy anything - they hike the prices up in expectation that they will be bargained with. If you actually pay the price they ask, you're a frier. (That said, I almost never bargain because I hate it too!) But really, you can just ask a cab driver to put on the meter and then you don't have to bargain. (You just have to hope they don't drive around in circles/take the long way to drive the price up.) It is illegal for them to refuse to turn on the meter (or to drive with a broken meter). I once told this to a driver who refused to turn on the meter and then claimed it was broken. He kicked me out of his cab and I hailed another one.
Anyway, I have to agree with Life'sgreat - people coming to visit E"Y don't necessarily have money to spare. Maybe they spent their entire savings on the ticket!

shalhevet

Mon, Mar 15 2010, 4:39 pm

torahtots wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Marion wrote:

ClaRivka wrote:

do you take advantage of the kosel and mekomos hakedoshim and the general atmosphere?

No. The kotel is a retaining wall and has no inherent kedusha.

I've never heard of it being assur to touch the kotel.

There are some opinions that the kedusha begins from the outside of the wall.

Quote:

The kotel is not the closest we can get to Har Habayit. First of all, the tunnels under the kotel get closer, and secondly, you COULD go to Har Habayit if you wanted to. (It's complicated because of nidda but it can be done.)

Thanks Rabbi Torahtots. That's not what 99% of rabbonim say, including the Chief Rabbinate. Most say someone who goes into the area of the azara today is chayav kareis, so it is totally assur to go onto Har Habayis. There's a problem with tumas meis which applies to both men and women.

Quote:

And if no one who is tamei could go to the kotel, then no one could go to the kotel because everyone is tamei!

No one said that, and you do realize you contradicted yourself about har habayis, right? You said yourself we are all tamei.

freidasima

Mon, Mar 15 2010, 4:52 pm

Shalhevet, from what I know the problem is that most people don't know how to differentiate between the areas on the "temple mount" that are permitted and those which are forbidden. However it seems that a number of rabbonim and scholars, each separately, who have spent years working on the topic of the beis hamikdash have "cordoned off" areas where one is permitted to go and where you are not. It's not something that the general public, or even most rabbonim know, hence it is preferable unless you are one of those people, not to go up to har habayis.

My dh is one of those people who "know" as he was once part of the group of engineers and rabbonim (no he is not an engineer) who worked on this, and he keeps talking about wanting to go, but he hasn't done it. I once remarked to him that it's interesting, he has taken me dozens of times to the kosel dromi and the continuation of the maarovi and explained to me what is where etc. and even though he "knows" he hadn't gone up. He said that you make one mistake...and it's big trouble, and that as sure as he is and as much as he wants to go...well I guess actions are louder than words and his action is NOT to go. What he did tell me though is that davening mincha at the kosel dromi in certain areas where you see the giant blocks in the lowest levels and you know how ancient they are, is just as kodosh as davening at the kosel hama'arovi that we know. Interesting...