Shame: nature vs. nurture

acccdac

Wed, Jun 09 2010, 7:56 pm

I agree that we should teach them positive and avoid bad actions to begin with.

an example of what I mean in shame, would be if your child is acting incorrectly in school you are not there to watch their behavior and make sure they're acting correctly. You can teach them correct middos but you dont know if they are following your teachings. So in my mind the idea of shame would be the backup system to ensure good behavior.

can you teach this shame or it needs to be in the child?

mamommommy

Wed, Jun 09 2010, 10:32 pm

Are you talking about things like paying attention in class, and doing their work, or are you asking about more nefarious things like fighting, stealing etc...

If you mean things like doing work and listening to the teacher, then I would answer that some kids seem to be born with the desire to please and internal motivation to succeed and some are not. For those who are not, however, I would never say to purposely use shame as a mechanism to get them to behave and listen. You may have to teach them motivation by using external motivators so that they can learn how to follow through on the principles and work ethic that you are trying to instill in them. Shame is something that will eventually come to them as a natural byproduct of failing to do well in school. They'll flunk, get in trouble with teachers, get picked on by other kids...all of which will teach the child enough shame.

If you are talking about things like fighting etc... Then I think that most children know that it's the wrong to do and yet may still engage in those activities for other reasons such as impulse control, anger management etc... None of which should be managed by shaming the child either. Again, the child probably already does feel ashamed of his/her behavior, but doesn't have the tools necessary to control their behavior adequately and to engage in more appropriate behaviors.

I think that you should be careful of equating teaching a child that something is wrong with teaching them to be ashamed. It's a fine line, but it can make a very big difference in how a child internalizes their mistakes and errors in their behaviors.

Raizle

Wed, Jun 09 2010, 10:56 pm

I don't think you the question here is being understood.

I think what accdac is asking is the following.
Most moral people feel shame when they do something wrong.
Is it something that is a natural instinct to feel or is it taught?

I believe that once you learn what is right and what is wrong then it's natural to feel shame by doing wrong.

the OP is not talking about making a child feel bad about themselves,
I don't think she is talking about shame being used as a punitive measure but if a child does something wrong and sees that the mother is disappointed then they may feel shame.
I don't see a problem with that, so long as the mother shows the child that she still loves and believes in him and that he can do better.

acccdac

Wed, Jun 09 2010, 11:01 pm

Raizle, you hit it on the nose, and so basically you show disappointment along with love when bad actions occur and eventually like mamommommy said, you begin to feel shame because you are more aware of the way others perceive you

thank you all for your answers

I just wanted to make sure that me sitting back and not "teaching" shame is the correct route, and just continue teaching good verses bad behavoirs/morals/etc and the shame will naturally occur

Raizle

Thu, Jun 10 2010, 12:00 am

acccdac wrote:

Raizle, you hit it on the nose, and so basically you show disappointment along with love when bad actions occur and eventually like mamommommy said, you begin to feel shame because you are more aware of the way others perceive you
thank you all for your answers

I just wanted to make sure that me sitting back and not "teaching" shame is the correct route, and just continue teaching good verses bad behavoirs/morals/etc and the shame will naturally occur

well I'd prefer they learn to feel shame for doing wrong in itself rather then what people think of them but I suppose it's all part and parcel.

I think shame is an integral part of understanding right from wrong. If you don't feel shame when you do the wrong thing then what is prompting you to do the right thing and better yourself.
So shame is a good thing when it serves to discourage the child from doing wrong.

what other posters were talking about is when the adults abuse this natural sense of shame and use it against the child, rather then encourage them that they can do better. Obviously that's wrong.

Quote:

I just wanted to make sure that me sitting back and not "teaching" shame is the correct route, and just continue teaching good verses bad behavoirs/morals/etc and the shame will naturally occur

everything is relative. Sometimes a child may need some prompting.
Also if a parent is teaching a child not to do the wrong thing because they will get in trouble, that may undermine the sense of shame that they really SHOULD be feeling.
It becomes more about punishment and reward then about wrong and right.
so I do think it's a good idea to spend a bit of effort teaching a child about how they should feel when doing wrong.
showing that you are disappointed, that you expected more of them, that you believe they are better then that and can do better then that, is teaching them a sense of worth, rather then showing them that your disappointment stems from them not following the rules.