Would YOU do this if you had the money?

neverbored

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 8:41 pm

mammele26 wrote:

What I'm upset about is people who lichatchila buy, to 'flip'. Of course you should make money where you can. If you don't, you're stupid. But stam flipping should IMO be done elsewhere. I'm not talking about regular buying, selling, renting out at market rates. What bothers me is when their doing business make the prices shoot up way above the market value. That to me is making it impossible for people of the neighborhood to live decently.

I agree with this completely. We have for years been wanting to buy a house in our area. Everybody knows about our search. One of our neighbors will purposely buy, and has bought, every house available in our area so that he can flip it and make a profit off us or another frum buyer and he is well aware of other potential buyers. Obviously, it is impossible for us to afford to buy under these circumstances. Mad

And yes, section eight or other government programs very well push the prices of the homes up as well as rentals up. So we, as the middle class, are still struggling to pay our basic rent in our tiny apartment.

Another thing that bothers me, is when a big project is mentioned about an area in the neighborhood that will be developed for affordable housing and when push comes to shove and the houses are ready to sell, we hear of people who have bought these for investment purposes and are selling them at way more than "affordable prices".

amother

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 8:54 pm

First of all, I'd like to say that I know firsthand just how frustrating this can be. I recommend you look at this differently. They say that just like a shidduch, a bas kol comes out and says which house should go to which person. The fact that people are holding on to 2 houses or 10 houses is not affecting you at all. I know it seems like all the good houses are taken, but there can be one reserved for you b'shaah tova. Every once in a while you have to put things in perspective. A house is not the most important thing in life. In fact, even when frustrated, deep down I always knew that. I think one reason it took us so long to find a house is that when davening for one I was never able to daven hard enough for it because I knew I didn't need it as I needed other things.

That doesn't mean that you should just sit back and wait. Despite the fact that everyone has a right to buy and hold a house for however long they want, there could be someone nice out there. I used to dream about these nice people surfacing so we could buy. In fact, once we were bidding against an investor from a yeshiva my husband was affiliated with, and when we told the investor he said he did not realize we wanted it and would not raise his bid. That house was not the one bashert for us though. If you don't tell the investors that you need a house for your family how should they know. It's worth a try.

I hope that the right house for you comes quicker than mine did, and when it does things happen quickly and painlessly.

djsheckie

Tue, Jul 27 2010, 3:26 am

OPINIONATED wrote:

djsheckie wrote:

I agree with the posters who are suggesting that if you can't afford to live in the popular frum area maybe you should live on the outskirts.

more affluent shul members would by up two nice older single story homes for around $300,000 each, have them knocked down and then build a huge mc mansion over the two lots. This resulted in some families who had been living in the area for years to sell their homes and move b/c they couldn't afford the property taxes anymore.

Were these people living in the houses and forced to move out, or were they living in adjacent homes and forced to move out? Why did the property taxes rise?

They were living in adjacent homes to those purchased. Since enough people bought multiple lots and built million dollar homes next to single story older homes it increased the taxes for that neighborhood. This rise in property values causes property taxes (which are based on the area property values) to increase. The owners in the area who are unable to pay the taxes are forced to sell and move to a cheaper community.

Rodent

Tue, Jul 27 2010, 6:28 am

amother wrote:

Rodent wrote:

I know it's legal and all that but I understand where you're coming from completely OP.
But then I personally think that people should only be allowed to own one home and the government own a certain amount for rental purposes that have prices kept at reasonable levels. It always seems unfair to me when people have holiday homes and investment homes and those who NEED housing can't afford anything because the prices are pushed up by inflated numbers of buyers vs owner/occupiers. Unrealistic? Absolutely. Still bugs me.

And I'm happy that your house was affordable marina. I don't think anywhere near a synagogue would be affordable in Australia full stop. I think we're in about the cheapest area and it's never going to happen.

hey there, I live in Australia too and I'm no where near the top of the money wheel, barely making our mortgage payments so no, no investments or holiday houses in sight.
But I have to ask you, what the heck does holiday houses have to do with anything?
those holiday houses are not even in the area, were you planning on buying in chelsea? frankston? c'mon, this is just picking at straws and looking to blame others for our own hardships.
I think we need to be fargin others what they have.
someone with a holiday home in chelsea is not affecting the price of housing in St Kilda or Caulfield.

Because I'm not talking only about Jews, believe it or not it affects others also! I know of numerous people who grew up in coastal areas that are being forced out of the market by holiday home owners who leave the properties empty 95% of the year. There is a housing shortage in GENERAL in Australia right now. Be grateful that you HAVE a mortgage to just afford to pay. We would never be close to even GETTING a mortgage, not even in the country! And yes, we've been close to moving to the middle of nowhere Jewishly speaking (as no Jews at all) but the expense of travelling to a mikveh would make it no cheaper than living where we are now where we're on the outskirts of walkability to the furthest out synagogue which we do not attend but at least have access to a mikveh even if it's quite a drive, and a few social opportunities. Our kids won't be going to Jewish schools (public) so we're pretty isolated as it is. And we were lucky to get the rental we have, they are like hen's teeth now and we have kids *shock horror*, small kids *oh no*, BOYS *G-d help us*. Don't even get me started on rental prices literally doubling in the past 10 years here.

This has nothing to do with our situation. I don't think holiday home owners are affecting our situation personally but it does affect others. Investors do affect to some degree but you were missing my point about being idealistic and totally NOT realistic...

Tova

Tue, Jul 27 2010, 6:53 am

IYamWhoIYam wrote:

Yes, I would do it. Sorry, but that's just the way the real estate market works.

(Not picking on you; you were just the most convenient to quote amongst all the recent posts with that opinion) - but the more I had my husband look into it the more reasons he could think of why the practice could be very problematic halachically. For good reason.

That being said, I agree that a lot of people would back away if they knew someone (or knew who) was bidding against them. This is from personal experience. Of course it can often be illegal for real estate agents to supply specific information about other bidders.

Raisin

Tue, Jul 27 2010, 7:49 am

Rodent wrote:

amother wrote:

Rodent wrote:

holiday home owners certainly affect people living in israel. Not only is property more expensive for families living there, some areas are dead at certain times of year.

ally

Tue, Jul 27 2010, 10:49 am

Raisin wrote:

Rodent wrote:

amother wrote:

Rodent wrote:

holiday home owners certainly affect people living in israel. Not only is property more expensive for families living there, some areas are dead at certain times of year.

I was going to say that. Welcome to Jerusalem where half the city is a ghost town except for Succos and Pesach and Israeli's can't afford to buy.

Rodent, I'm only saying this because you said "in the whole of Australia", What about Perth?

amother

Tue, Jul 27 2010, 2:22 pm

There is such a thing as plain mentshlechkeit and behaving better towards a member of am yisrael.
So as a homeowner, I try to be very reasonable to my tenants, not raising their rents, so they are paying way below market value, simply because I am human and I have a heart, and my conscience does not allow me to throw out an old or widowed tenant or make a young couple pay what they cannot afford.
So I have an enormous mortgage to cover, and I live very simply so that I do not need to overburden my tenants with a rent that they cannot afford to pay. In other words, I pay triple the amount, as the owner.
The tenants are paying half the market value simply because I would never tell anyone to leave.

I call it "charity beginning at or near my home". I also call it being smart. I have a mitzva every second of every day. Now having said this, I have to post anonymously. I am not trying to brag, just posting in the hope of being inspiring to someone else who may consider doing this too. I can reveal myself to non bashers at their humble requests.

As far as buying and selling and flipping, and making money, I have seen people make those few thousand only to lose it somehow right after, because like with everything else, honestly earned money is never lost. Questionable money comes and goes, and I am a big believer in that, having seen it all my life. I personally saw a person who made an extra 50 grand on me lose it within three short months.
I did not protest, as I saw that if Hashem wants, he can give me more another way, and He did BH.

A house is definitely beshert, so is where you will live at any given time.
Whatever a person does, he ultimately does for himself. No one earns even one dollar that Hashem has not written he will earn. Likewise we lose that which is not really ours to begin with.

We have a right to buy as many houses as we want and wherever we want, after all life is like Monopoly, and we can then go on and buy hotels too. We are not obligated to sell houses below market value or over pay so that someone can make a profit. But we can choose to do as we wish, its a free country.
It is not against halacha to buy a summer home or a winter home, or a dozen homes.
My goal in life has always been to help each of my children buy a home, just as my parents helped us.

amother

Tue, Jul 27 2010, 3:24 pm

amother wrote:

OP- my question is, if you had the money to buy a house and then look to make the most profit out of it (if that also meant turning a away a frum family that was interested), would you do the same? the answer is most likely, yes, you would. and that doesn't make them or you evil. its just what most people would do because everyone is ultimately out to make a parnassah and for some, this is their parnassah.

I'm not the OP. But I most definetly would not. In fact DH does buy/sell real estate for part of our parnasa and chooses to do it outside of frum communities for exactly this reason. It means he has more of a commute, and probably makes less. But NO I would never look to make a parnasa at the expense of another yid.

ora_43

Tue, Jul 27 2010, 3:38 pm

amother wrote:

That's odd. So he agrees that it's not moral, but thinks it's fine to be immoral if the people involved aren't Jewish? Or he thinks it is moral, but doesn't want to sell houses to Jews because someone might get hurt, even though ultimately selling and buying houses is a necessary part of life?

Raisin

Tue, Jul 27 2010, 3:56 pm

ora_43 wrote:

amother wrote:

I think we can agree that non jews are much much more mobile. they are not restricted by shul, shabbos, kosher stores or the one school in town that fits their hashkafa.

ora_43

Tue, Jul 27 2010, 4:24 pm

Raisin wrote:

I think we can agree that non jews are much much more mobile. they are not restricted by shul, shabbos, kosher stores or the one school in town that fits their hashkafa.

True.

But as Rodent was pointing out, and ally mentioned it as well, what a (relative) few people do in real estate can affect an entire city, or even an entire country.

I don't see someone who does that in a non-Jewish part of town because "they can just move to a different neighborhood" as being morally any different than someone who does it in the Jewish part of town because "it's not like this was the only house on the market."

Rodent

Tue, Jul 27 2010, 6:38 pm

ally wrote:

Rodent, I'm only saying this because you said "in the whole of Australia", What about Perth?

Perth is no longer a cheap option. It has boomed in recent years and is very expensive also in the Jewish area. You may get slightly more for money than here but minimal and with moving costs and higher prices on many items because of the distance it is more expensive than where we live right now and I'd never see family (wouldn't have the money for removals anyway). Work has to be taken into consideration too, the smaller the place the fewer the jobs, and it's not easy getting work from the other side of the country when you can't afford flights and accommodation for interviews etc. 10 years ago it absolutely was a good option and I know many people that jumped on it. Today I don't see it unless we're talking comparisons to the most exclusive areas which we are not in. We have personally looked into Perth several times since we moved here in 2006 and we were basically told that my husband wouldn't get work, I may be able to depending on vacancies in the Jewish school (but without that it would be doable but tricky and time consuming) and the we'd be best to stay put for now. I've moved without prospects before but pre-kids, I'm not uprooting everything when it could be a disaster with them in tow.

Last edited by Rodent on Tue, Jul 27 2010, 6:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Tue, Jul 27 2010, 6:41 pm

ora_43 wrote:

amother wrote:

I'm the amother you are replying to. In the Jewish area, or at least were we live the houses that are resonably priced, there are like 3 youg couples and 5 investors for every house. It is very cut throat.
Were dh buys a house sits on the market for months or years. He is not buying anyone out of the area. In fact most of the houses are rentals, and he buys run down homes, that no one wants, that they are practically giving aways, puts in 10,000, makes them look nice, new bathrooms, kitchens, floors, paint and rents them. He is also a fair landlord. So I think he is actually doing a service were he is rather then buying here.

amother

Tue, Jul 27 2010, 7:56 pm

Rodent wrote:

amother wrote:

Rodent wrote:

Ok maybe I'm a bit clueless about this topic but there is something you said I really don't get.
I agree there is a housing shortage in the Jewish community. But how can there be one in the wider Australian community in a country that is under-populated with large land areas? Don't people buy land and build houses from scratch? Or is it that the general population also feel the need to live in certain communities and won't move out further? It's not as if there is no where to move out in this country.

Rodent

Tue, Jul 27 2010, 11:33 pm

Being a large country doesn't mean it's vastly underpopulated. It's not btw, it couldn't sustain numbers such as the US has. Yes it could sustain more, but it is not comparable to other similarly sized land masses, it's way more complicated than that.
Governments aren't releasing enough land for sale to build on. Population is growing faster than housing is being built = housing shortage. It's more evident in cities, especially Sydney where land releases aren't so common.
And building housing necessitates facilities and services that also have to grow around it, again, all of this is happening much slower than populations are growing.
Hence my gripe about holiday houses in some areas as it's sometimes a waste of a house really when they're empty 95% of the time and there are people that need somewhere to live. Not to mention the environmental impact of people having to live further away and commute longer distances.

And it's not so simple to move to unpopulated areas. Unpopulated also generally means no jobs so even being 'cheaper' doesn't mean it can work unless you have some way of producing income by other means.