my dd wants to go to secular college....

morah

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 10:27 am

amother wrote:

My dd wants to to to Kingsborough or Brooklyn but coming out of a frum girl's high school even if she'll be living at home, I think it's quite a culture shock-going to school with non jews and guys-the world is open, anything is possible-even for a kid not looking for trouble. I'm trying to convince her these are NOT good choices for her....

And she'll never ever be going to work with non-Jews and guys? Such is life, better she learns to deal with it now while she's young. For all your concerns, Brooklyn College + living at home is the the best you can get. If she's coming home every day to a strong yiddeshe home, what she encounters in class won't be a big deal. Are most of the kids in class going to be virgins? Probably not. But when they're in class, they're there to study, not to talk about what they did with their girlfriend last night. All the better if your daughter studies in a no-joke major, where everyone is concerned with doing well without much regard for social life.

A few people here have mentioned certain philosophies, feminism etc that may come up in class. Certainly I would say that one should stay away from any kind of "gender studies" or "religious studies" or "bible studies" course, where one would not only encounter anti-Torah philosophies, but indeed, the purpose of such courses is to deal with such philosophies. However (and I say this having majored in English and minored in political science) in a typical literature course, when feminism or religion comes up, it's in the context of the book that's being read and is usually important to understanding the social implications of the work. For instance, when I took a course in the works of Jane Austen, I had to read a lot of what they call "feminist criticism" which had nothing to do with Betty Friedan-type "women need to get out of the kitchen and be like men" stuff, but was more an exploration of certain 18th century ideals about women, and how Austen was at once satirizing and propping up those ideals. Same can be said for religion as it comes up in certain works. As long as you don't read excerpts of New Testament (and all my professors were fine with me declining to read such passages) you're fine.

For political science, I'll admit that most professors tend to push a liberal agenda. Aside from the fact that you can always choose not to study political science (if it really bothers you that much) keep 2 things in mind: A good professor will not penalize you for disagreeing as long as what you're saying is well-argued and has support from respected sources. Also, there is much less of a relationship between religious hashkafah and political hashkafah than some people would have you believe.

tovasara

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 12:46 pm

When I went to college 25 years ago it was completely acceptable for frum girls to go to secular college - specifically Brooklyn and queens that had large frum populations. I agree that there are dangers, but if more frum families would send their daughters to these types of city schools (with the girls living at home), there would be more frum girls there and therefore, less concern of getting involved with the wrong people, ideas, etc.

It is much more economical as well. I don't know how people are affording Touro, especially if someone wants to go on to graduate school. Finances are hard enough as it is.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 1:00 pm

amother wrote:

just wanted to share my experience here. I went to an all girls high school. went to sem for a year. came back to america and I went to a secular uni. in the beginning I came home and cried every day because it was weird for me to be among non jews and males at that. then it became ok.
I never hung out with anyone at uni. I went to study and came straight home. there was never any issues with kashrut or parties. I never even thought about that stuff. I kept my socializing to my friends from home. I became friendly with some of the students, but it was just one of those things during the day during class, we never spoke on the phone, I never went to parties there.
it is completely doable to stay nice and frum and never once even encounter the college life stuff that a frum girl (or her parents) may not want her to be connected to.

random

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 1:01 pm

I'm not sure where you're coming from religiously, but I went to an OOT BY and then to Bnos Chava (where they are anti secular college). My family is considered "yeshivish" although there are different degrees of that....

I went to a secular college, and don't recommend it for all people. I was commuting (I definitely DON'T recommend being in the dorms - even all female ones).

For me, it ended up being a good thing - because I was constantly fielding questions about my Judaism, I was forced to examine it, my choices, why I do what I do, etc, and this strengthened my Judaism. So if someone has a strong basis in their Yiddishkeit, I think it's okay. (Although I definitely had a culture shock my first few weeks there.)

For a friend of mine, though, it meant a place where she could slowly discard the parts of Judaism that she was uncertain about. First to go was shomer negiah, then tznius, then lots of other things.

So basically, it can be dangerous - if you're not grounded and don't know why you do what you do. Having some sort of rav/teacher/anchor is critical.

In terms of marriage, I was in my last semester of graduate school when I got married - that was pretty hard - I was adjusting to a new life, etc. while staying up 'till 2 AM writing papers...but it was necessary. In my line of work, employers would not have looked at a degree from any of the frum places - but that depends on what your daughter is interested in doing.

Atali

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 1:13 pm

I am currently attending a public community college and am soon going to transfer to a public four-year college.

I believe that if your daughter wants to study something for which there are decent programs at frum colleges than she should choose that option. This is likely the case for fields that frum girls typically go into like education or speech therapy.

However, for some degrees the quality at frum institutions does not compare to the quality at secular institutions and for those programs going there is not a good idea. In such a case I would recommend that your DD start at a community college and transfer. Community colleges tend to have older students who are there for an education rather than an "experience".

JRKmommy

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 1:31 pm

If your dd is from a somewhat sheltered environment, and if she may be taking any liberal arts sort of courses at all, try to make sure that she has some mentors - frum women who have previously been to university and are familiar with the challenges.

Even though I went to a public high school that was practically libertarian, I was still shocked by the political atmosphere in my university. [Ironically, I went from describing myself as a socialist to conservative.] Where should I begin? Young Socialist organization selling "Israel: An Apartheid State" in the main student area? Political science courses where they refused to acknowledge the fall of the Berlin Wall? International Law course discussing how the raid on Entebbe was obvious a gross violation of Uganda's sovereignty? Part of the ultimate value of a university education, beyond practical career training, is learning to question everything and think critically and independently. It's a bit of a trial by fire to learn that, and it sometimes means being exposed to philosophies and arguments that seem utterly strange or even repugnant.

[To be perfectly fair - this was an issue for me especially, because I was a political science major at a school known for loony left politics. Dh was a science major, and had much less of this. I still saw some of this in law school, but less.]

Atali

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 2:38 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

Atali, when I went to Stern, a million years ago, it was $500 a credit. It must be much much more now.

As compared to a city run school, where your whole tuition costs $1500 or $2000.

Touro isn't particularly expensive.

I wasn't looking at it from the financial point of view anyway. With regard to financial return-on-investment, a public college is usually the better choice. However, the same way that parents pay more to send their children to Jewish schools rather than public school (even in good districts), it is logical for parents to pay more to send their children to frum colleges rather than secular ones if it makes sense for what the children want to major in.

For me, it does not make sense, which is why I am going to a public university.

amother

Yellow

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 2:40 pm

JRKmommy wrote:

Even though I went to a public high school that was practically libertarian, I was still shocked by the political atmosphere in my university. [Ironically, I went from describing myself as a socialist to conservative.] Where should I begin? Young Socialist organization selling "Israel: An Apartheid State" in the main student area? Political science courses where they refused to acknowledge the fall of the Berlin Wall? International Law course discussing how the raid on Entebbe was obvious a gross violation of Uganda's sovereignty?

My all-time favorite was a professor of a psychology that said that all Jewish women are in unhappy marriages and should get divorced.

This professor was fired because of a statement he made about black women and s*x. It's only politically correct to make derogatory statements about Jewish women.

Last edited by amother on Wed, Dec 30 2015, 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

farm

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 4:59 pm

Amother, I agree with most of what others have responded thus far. If you are in the NYC vacinity, Queens and Brooklyn are good choices as they are full of frum kids and your daughter will be coming home to your heimish environment every night. There are plenty of other colleges besides for those 2 that fit the bill as well. I attended a secular co-ed college after a BY education and a year of seminary in EY and had no problem with it. There were a few other frummies and we all studied together, worked on assignments, ate lunch, and usually sat together during lecture. We were no different that the "Korian clic," "Russian clic," or "Greek clic." We were the "Jewish clic." I did plenty of group assignments with random classmates and had no problem maintaining casual friendships with any of them. Classmates would ask me to explain things to them or do some tutoring, so I was definitely approachable and not snobby, but I wouldn't give out my phone number and get together with them after class. Although I was not taking liberal arts classes for the most part (used my AP and NYIT credits), there was still some of the liberal leftist thinking that would very sometimes leak into a random lecture, and we would all let it go and laugh about it after the class together. During the presidential elections when there was a very strong anti GWB sentiment, I kept my thoughts to myself and did not discuss politics with classmates. If your daughter is majoring in a field where this is more of an issue, just make sure she has her head on straight and has open-minded and smart role models to talk to if things come up that confuse her or lead her to question what she has been taught in your home. I really like the idea of your DH writing a list of reasons why secular college is not for her and then letting her address each one of his concerns and showing him how it will not be a problem.
As a side, Ruchel, being that you are coming from a European background and the original post was from an American (I'm assuming since obviously a frum college is an option for her, that she is in the US), your university experience is really not helpful here. Whether or not 100% of college kids are virgins in Paris and no one ever discusses how beautiful gay marriage is in a University in Paris really does not apply to colleges in the US. It's great that you are giving your opinion and trying to be helpful, but using your experience as an example is not helpful to this Amother.

chocolate moose

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 8:24 pm

Atali wrote:

Touro is a private school and expensive. Perhaps they give big scholarships; I don't know about that.

Except that Jewish schools like Stern have you take a double curriculum. It means a full load of college Judaica, plus a full load of college courses. It's very hard and time consuming.

NotInNJMommy

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 8:39 pm

sequoia wrote:

NotInNJMommy wrote:

I thought I was pretty mature in college, and I probably was, but at the same time, I wouldn't have wanted to be the only person who couldn't go out to eat with the rest of the gang or didn't go to that movie or didn't hang out socially with boys...things which may not be the most appropriate thing for OP's dd (or other member's dd's) to be doing...

Frum kids generally hang out with other frum kids. They do shabbat together and everything.

Okay, obviously if hanging out socially with boys, in a group setting, is a problem then maybe secular college could be difficult. The frum kids that I saw in college seemed to be getting along swimmingly.

Not all schools have a frum crowd to hang out in!

And "frum" doesn't meant the same to everyone. When I became frum in college/grad school I hung out with boys! There was a coed group of about 6 of us who were shomer shabbos/kashrus...but really, that wasn't the derech I ultimately wanted to be on, and if someone comes from such a derech, then it's just not so simple. This is on a campus of 50K people! Also, the closest place to eat out kosher was 30 min away by car. (hours by busses)

I'm not anti-college, it's just that I thin kthere are pitfalls we should be aware of.

manhattanmom

Wed, Aug 04 2010, 9:46 pm

I went to Brooklyn College straight from High School--went to seminary half a day at the same time.

Yes, I heard things and was exposed to a totally different world than I was used to. But I learned.

And I feel I got a top-quality education with my parents paying much less than they would have had I gone to a "Jewish" college.
I also feel that I became slightly more mature than my friends who were in Touro--they felt like they were still in High School sometimes--lots of girls whining about projects, papers, kissing-up to teachers...

amother

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 12:26 am

My dd only wanted a frum environment. She was worried, not us. She really disliked it. Felt like it was high school. The quality of her education was most certainly not the best. B"H she is a good student & very bright & personable. She got into a really great grad program (which tells you that the education wasn't bad, just not great) but much emphasis was paid to her interview.
IMHO, you know how strong your child is. You know if she is subject to influences that are out there. User your judgement. As s/o else said there is also a diff when one is in a dorm or living at home.