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What do you think of Amen Seudas/Seudat Amen?
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 19 2010, 2:36 pm
Well let's see.
The word "mizrahi" is a made up word of the past 20 or 25 years with political connotations. When I was growing up and any time before that the word was Sefaradi.
By sefaradi the idea was that the Jewish world was divided into Ashkenazim and Sefaradim and each gropu was further divided.

Ashkenazim included litvish, chassidish, yekkish, Ruissian, central european, general misnagdim and the like.

Sefaradim included north african, asian, turkish, italian, spanish and the like.

Teimanim were their own category but basically considered more like sefaradim and not ashkenazim.

What's so complicated?
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 19 2010, 2:39 pm
Italian is Sefaradi? In minhag Italian is closer to Ashkenazi, and in fact it's its own minhag. Same for Greek. Same for Berber. Same for Mizrachi though many of them have been assimilated into Sefardi-ish and their rabbanim bemoan it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.....sions


Last edited by Ruchel on Tue, Oct 19 2010, 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 19 2010, 2:42 pm
Well Ruchel, the former chief rabbi of Italy told me that when members of his kehila make aliya he tells them that their chief rabbinical authority is the Sefaradi chief rabbi and not the Ashkenazi one...so that must say something too.

The Greeks in EY consider themselves sefaradim. All those who daven at the big greek shul in Tel Aviv follow the sefaradi chief rabbi as their rabbinic authority.

Berbers? Morrocan North Africans? Of course they consider themselves Sefaradim, at least those in EY.

Mizrahi is a made up political word and has nothing to do with anything religious!!
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 19 2010, 2:47 pm
Quote:
when members of his kehila make aliya he tells them that their chief rabbinical authority is the Sefaradi chief rabbi and not the Ashkenazi one...so that must say something too.


It says something about his kehila.
Do you know how many ethnicities there are in Italy? Sefardi, Italian, Ashkenazi, French/Apam, and more recently Mizrachi. Well all these ethnicities can be cut into different ones too.

If it says something, it's about Israeli politics, maybe.
Quote:

The Greeks in EY consider themselves sefaradim.

In Europe the Sefardic ones consider themselves Sefardic, the Italian ones Italian, the Ashkenazic ones Ashkenazic (yes, in Greece), and the Greek ones Greek. Oh and pre-war they all davened at different shuls, even different Sefardim had different shuls with different minhagim.

Quote:
Berbers? Morrocan North Africans? Of course they consider themselves Sefaradim, at least those in EY.


Many here do. Many are into their origins.

Quote:
Mizrahi is a made up political word and has nothing to do with anything religious!!


Ha. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews
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Mrs Bissli




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 19 2010, 2:47 pm
freidasima wrote:
Well let's see.
The word "mizrahi" is a made up word of the past 20 or 25 years with political connotations. When I was growing up and any time before that the word was Sefaradi.
By sefaradi the idea was that the Jewish world was divided into Ashkenazim and Sefaradim and each gropu was further divided.

Ashkenazim included litvish, chassidish, yekkish, Ruissian, central european, general misnagdim and the like.

Sefaradim included north african, asian, turkish, italian, spanish and the like.

Teimanim were their own category but basically considered more like sefaradim and not ashkenazim.

What's so complicated?


No. Mizrachi is not a recent PC invention. Western sephardim (who traces lineage from Spain) are distinctively different from mizrachim, though there were cross-fertilisation between the two in some countries.
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 19 2010, 2:57 pm
Of course they are different but sorry to say, being older and even remembering when the word "mizrahi" was invented, that it's a political invention of the State of Israel folks.

The idea at first was to differentiate European sefaradim from others and particularly north africans, this was at the time of MK Charlie Bitton and the Black Panthers. Even at the time of the Wadi Salib riots, the first racial riots in Israel (Haifa 1959) the term Mizrahi was not yet used, it only became more common in the 1970s, first used politically during Bitton's time in the late 1960s.

There was in fact a big argument about using it, because the word "mizrachi" prounounced the same as "mizrahi" in Hebrew by sefaradim (meaning the "het" and "chet" business) was part of a name of a political party! The Mizrachi-hapoel hamizrachi....only when the mizrachi became part of the Mafdal, the coalition of religious parties in the 1980s, was the term "mizrahi" finally used to mean only one thing on the political scene, the "orientals", as they are known in English.

And Ruchel if you would thoroughly read the wikipedia article you quote, you would see that it basically says what I am saying.

Also the term "eidot hamizrach" is not "mizrahi"...otherwise there would be no need for a new term. Eidot hamizrach is an old term used for decades...mizrahi is a new politicized term that was meant to be poltical....do you understand enough about israeli ethnic politics to know its history? Living here for the past 36 years...I do....
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 19 2010, 3:08 pm
Even "Mizrachi" is extremely large and diverse. But it's less uneducated than "Sefardi" as an umbrella name.

As for Italian or Greek being Sefardi, they both existed millenia before Sefardi/Ashkenazi so they wouldn't suddenly turn so.

Google tells me just in Salonika there were 36 (!) various shuls, each one with its own minhag of origin from Russia to North Africa to Portugal to France to Poland to Greece to Turkey to Provence.
Italy was in a similar situation before the "Enlightenment". Bulgaria too. Probably some areas in Romania.

I suppose nowadays to many it's just chul nitpicking and good for the trash.
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 19 2010, 3:10 pm
Ruchel we are talking about today or post-war and not prewar. It has no application to the argument at hand.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 19 2010, 3:16 pm
freidasima wrote:
Ruchel we are talking about today or post-war and not prewar. It has no application to the argument at hand.


In many circles BH there are people who value THEIR minhag.

It was an extreme example. Which would still exist without Uncle Dolfi. Nowadays people do what they can in Europe to keep their heritage (and not someone else's).
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chanchy123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 19 2010, 4:02 pm
Excuse my interruption.
I just wanted to update that I ended up not going It just doesn't feel right to me.
Instead I am vegitating and procrastinating instead of doing the dishes and setting out clothes for the kids tomorrow. I may have made the wrong choice Question
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chanchy123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 19 2010, 4:13 pm
freidasima wrote:
Folks, shoot the one who wrote the message, not the messenger.
I'm just telling you that there are sefaradi, mizrachi, oriental, call them whatever you want, they are not vus vusim, yeah? rabbonim who consider women to be very inferior and unlearned creatures. That, it seems, was true in their youth in wherever they came from where women were illiterate, not allowed out of the house alone as they couldn't be trusted with money, and were there basically for three tasks - to be a bedmate, to cook and to clean.

They weren't entrusted with anything else in some places...yeah ever hear of the berber and the morrocan mountain Jews of the beginning of the century? Women there really WERE not only illeterate and uneducated but were treated by their men as slaves...very very different than those in Casablanca, marrakesh or any cities.

In short, so much is a social construct right? Well in these places it seems women were truly considered...only "half people" or rather full people with half brains. Hence they weren't chayav brochos. I never asked about mikva as I never spoke personally to any of these rabbonim but only read their psikos and learned about them. But guess what? Who cares! There are lots of rabbonim who unfortunately have written lots of what looks to us like narishkeit but in the framework of their time and their communities it made absolutely sense...and not only in this example but in many others that later become fodder for arguments, not only in imamother but in real life as well..

I'm appalled at your racism.
It seems that you have gotten your halachic information from a very unreliable source. I wouldn't doubt it all seems like narishkeit to you, since you are missing a lot of basic rules. How about taking a class in halachic reasoning?
You are only revealing yourself as a small minded bigot while you are trying to portray an entire sect of Judaism as bigots.
Torah is not feminist and I do not for one second believe that the great torah scholars of North Africa were front liners for women's lib organizations. However, they did and still do pasken according to a specific logic, which is manifest in their concept of brachot.
I meant that in Israel - you can't just be Sphardi. It's not a derech, you can be Sphardi MO, Sphardi chareidi, Sphardi chabadnik, Sphardi Breslov etc. etc. Just like you can be an Ashkenazic all of the above. Of course, everyone brings their herritage to their derech but the place their family spent their galus years in does not represent who they are hashkaficly.
Yekkes are a great example. In Israel, no one is a Yekke, you're either a DL Yekke, a Chareidi Yekke, a MO Yekke, whatever.
A derech is something you can choose, your family's herritage is something you are born into and take with you into your derech.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 19 2010, 4:17 pm
That's fine, until your derech conflicts with your minhag (charedi yekke bullied into keeping 6 hours, DL Polish bullied into dropping the sheitel, Chabad Yemenite bullied into wearing a sheitel, etc).
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hannah95




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 19 2010, 6:51 pm
Ruchel wrote:
That's fine, until your derech conflicts with your minhag (charedi yekke bullied into keeping 6 hours, DL Polish bullied into dropping the sheitel, Chabad Yemenite bullied into wearing a sheitel, etc).


From what I see here, it's mostly the other way around the hair covering thing. More and more sefaradim are wearing wigs. Not because they have to, but because they are losing their minhagim to other influences, mostly chabad.



On the sefaradim men, I'm quiet fed up with the stereotypes going on here. Our husbands are not violent-very-hairy-stupid guys. And our Rabbis are respectful of women.
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 20 2010, 2:36 am
Chanchy I really don't know if you read the post too fast or are trying to start a fight.

Why are you blaming ME for something that a few sefaradi rabbis wrote or said about women?

Did I say that this was MY reasoning?
Did I say that this was MY psak?
Did I say that this was MY thoughts about women??????

I brought INFORMATION. Like someone who would mention something - not their opinion, but just for information's sake to add to a discussion that was going on.

Why in the world are you calling ME a racist? Call those rabbis racists, that's fine and dandy, but why me?

That would mean that anyone who ever mentions that Hitler said or did this and that is a Nazi?

Wow, a lot of high school teachers all over the world teaching the Holocaust have just become Nazis.

So maybe chill out and next time read the post better and see whether anywhere I mention that I agree with this or that it is my opinion. I didn't. Ever. Just brought it for general information, nothing else.

Gee, I see that people are really looking for fights here...for no reason...go fight with the rabbi who wrote it, not with me.

I don't agree with it, I think it's crazy. But it exists hence I brought it.

I think a lot of opinions are crazy that rabbis write or say, just don't blame me for them.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 20 2010, 7:18 am
hannah95 wrote:
Ruchel wrote:
That's fine, until your derech conflicts with your minhag (charedi yekke bullied into keeping 6 hours, DL Polish bullied into dropping the sheitel, Chabad Yemenite bullied into wearing a sheitel, etc).


From what I see here, it's mostly the other way around the hair covering thing. More and more sefaradim are wearing wigs. Not because they have to, but because they are losing their minhagim to other influences, mostly chabad.


Yes, this is also happening in Europe. It also bothers me when their minhag is against sheitels, or when it's pushed. It bothers me everywhere, for every minhag.
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