Batel Beshishim and Hechshers

zipporah

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 7:52 am

Has anybody else heard of the opinion that foods made for non-Jews are OK without a hechsher if the non-kosher ingredient would be covered under batel beshishim? We're discussing Thomy mayonnaise right now. Are there any other popular processed foods people buy without a hechsher?

Kashrut of Thomy Mayonnaise

sarahd wrote:

DrMom wrote:

sarahd wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

Thomy mayo from Europe. Afaik you can't get it in the US.

How well will a product without a hechsher go over in America? Thomy mayonnaise cannot be manufactured under hashgacha (for halachic reasons.) I heard rumors that they will be changing the manufacturing process in order to be able to get a hechsher and sell to the American market, but so far AFAIK that hasn't happened.

I'm intrigued.
What's so special about this mayo and the manufacturing process?

You really want to know? It contains shock

a non-kosher ingredient. This is not a problem as long as it's not under hashgacha because it's batel beshishim. However, the halacha is that "en mevatlin issur lechatchila" - you can't deliberately add a non-kosher ingredient to something and say, well it's batel beshishim. However, as long as it's not being done specifically for a Jew - as it would be if it were under hashgacha - it's okay.

If Thomy decides to reformulate its mayonnaise and substitute a kosher version of the treif ingredient, that would be fine. I don't know if they have decided to do that yet.

baba

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 7:58 am

I just want to point out that people are not simply buying this without a hechsher.

People buy this because it is listed on a well respected (hareidi) kosher list, which is the way we buy all our food here in Europe.

I would also like to point out that we havent seen any proof of there actually being a non kosher ingredient in the product nor a source for this halacha.

zipporah

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 8:08 am

baba wrote:

I've seen the Thomy Francaise type on the list, is this the same or is there another type. From the ongoing discussion, I thought they were different.

And I'm asking here in the kosher section so maybe we can get a source.

sarahd

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 8:40 am

Has anybody here asked their LOR? This is not some esoteric, way-out halacha only used as a bedieved. The reason most people don't know of it or make use of it is that in America and Israel, kosher food is manufactured under hashgacha, so this halacha can't be applied.

FTR, I (or rather dh) was told this halacha by our LOR, who is one of the biggest kashrus experts in Europe.

zipporah

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 8:46 am

sarahd wrote:

So this only applies in Europe?

zipporah

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 8:48 am

baba wrote:

We're only talking about the one on the list. The others arent considered kosher at all.

OK. So there are more than one, but only the Francaise is being discussed. I was definitely confused. I saw the francaise on the list, so I guess I don't have a problem with that. What's the difference between the list and a hechsher?

baba

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 9:21 am

I would say the big difference is the fact that the manufacturer in the US actually wants the hechsher. It is profitable for them and therefore they pay for it. This of course gives whoever is certifying the hechsher a lot more leeway for demands.

Here in Europe, there is no reason for a manufacture to pay for this since there is only a tiny minority who would then buy there product. So the rabbanut makes a list of products that they have checked out and have deemed to be kosher.
Therefore, in stead, it is the manufaturer doing us a favor.

To me, if a product is on a reliable list, it is as if there is a hechsher stamped on the box and I'll eat it. Although apparently there is a slight difference according to the halacha sarahd has brought up.

zipporah

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 9:39 am

baba wrote:

OK. To me, if the Rabbanut of a country (well, most countries LOL

) is supervising something, it's good to go. I was thinking that this was an unsupervised product. I don't get why it couldn't get a hechsher if the company wanted one. I don't think this was being explained very well.

zipporah

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 10:20 am

sarahd wrote:

If it's manufactured under hashgacha, then it's being manufactured for the baal machshir and the non-kosher ingredient is being added for him.

Man, I'm glad I got clarification. So the Swiss kashrut authority checks to make sure a product only has kosher ingredients or those covered under batel. A Jew isn't allowed to benefit from products with intentionsl nonkosher ingredients, so they can't sell it commercially. Thanks!

Does this sound about right?

"Where you do have a point is in regard to the kashrut of products made by non-jews, which contain non-kosher ingredients in amounts that are batel. Mainstream kashrut agencies will not give a hechsher to such products, although there is no issur involved.

This is largely because there are divergent approaches to batel beshishim. One approach is that it is still a midat chasiddut to avoid such foods, in part because of the talmudic dictum that "ma'achalot assurot metamtemim et halev" (forbidden foods confound the heart). One could of course point out that foods that have been batel are not "ma'achalot issurot," but a kabbalistic understanding of this text and kashrut generally is that the molecular nature of these foods is evil. On the other hand, one need not necessarily concern oneself with kabbalistic understandings.

A second view of batel beshishim is neutral, but a third view is that it is heretical to deny the efficacy of bitul: since "Chazal" permitted these items, who are you to prohibit it?"

Question on Kashrut and Batel

sarahd

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 10:35 am

zipporah wrote:

sarahd wrote:

If it's manufactured under hashgacha, then it's being manufactured for the baal machshir and the non-kosher ingredient is being added for him.

Also, I'm not sure this last sentence is correct, since the kosher stores here do carry Thomy mayonnaise.

zipporah

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 11:28 am

sarahd wrote:

Mostly sounds about right, but I'm certainly not about to say that one need not concern oneself with kabbalistic understandings.

sorry... I just cut and pasted the whole statement because of the third opinion. I didn't want to leave out a part when it obviously referenced three things...

Kayza

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 10:56 pm

The issue regarding batel beshishim is not a matter of whether the food is made for Jews or not - if it's put in on purpose, then it's an issue. Generally Batel Beshshim, even bidieved, only works if the ingredient is not an important one. That's why most spices and coloring agents, for instance.

Interestingly, I was just listening to a mini-shiur from the OU on beverages, and the lecturer discusses some of the issues related to batel beshshim, and he points out that many flavorings and colorings are definitely less than shishim, but because they are put in because they have a definite effect, they cannot be botul. This is true regardless of who the drink is being made for.

There are also other issues that can cause something that one would not expect to be batul beshishim to still present a problem, as well. A lot depends on the manufacturing process.

I'm not talking about any specific product here, just the idea that batel beshishim is always permitted if the food is being made for non-jews. That is not correct.

zipporah

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 3:43 am

Kayza wrote:

Wow, this is really interesting. I learn a lot from here. Was that shiur available for download? I'd love to hear it...

Mrs Bissli

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 11:42 am

Gee, I hope people who are makpid about avoiding batel beshishim are not using canned foods all together.
In case you are not aware, most commercial cans are first coated with very very thin layer of glyceride derivative, which is subsequently rinsed but a very small residue remains. There are a few factories that have dedicated kosher-certified glyceride (I've seen one personally) though I have heard it is extremely hard to trace which cans are coated with which (unlike actual ingredients) so hechsher relies on batel beshishim.