Hishtadlus vs. Bitachon

mali

Wed, Sep 20 2006, 2:11 am

mummyof6 wrote:

The difference is that fixing your teeth is dealing with a situation which already exists. B'derech Hateva (the rules of nature) the cavity is not going to go away by itself (unless for someone with incredibly strong bitachon as I've explained before, or maybe he wouldn't get a cavity in the first place).

If both parents are carriers, even unknowingly, I would call it an existing situation. Why take a chance?

shalhevet

Wed, Sep 20 2006, 2:26 am

I explained before that if someone doesn't know something then it takes it out of the realms of a miracle into teva. No-one knows that they have a 1:4 chance. B'derech hateva they have a 1:2500 chance.

Now if a couple were to be tested and both found to be carriers, then they would have to be on a very high level of bitachon to have healthy children without doing anything about it.

The same idea is if someone has an u/s and finds a problem with the fetus, they now need a miracle for it to disappear. But if no-one knows, then it could be that tefilos for a healthy baby work to remove the problem without anyone knowing about it. (I'm obviously not talking about Tay-Sachs here but other disabilities)

I also want to stress that there are things which are decreed on a person and no amount of hishtadlus and/or bitachon is going to change it. So chas v'shalom to say that a person who has something 'bad' happen to them, it means they are lacking in bitachon.

mali

Wed, Sep 20 2006, 2:31 am

mummyof6 wrote:

Now if a couple were to be tested and both found to be carriers, then they would have to be on a very high level of bitachon to have healthy children without doing anything about it.

Bitachon?

Quote:

The same idea is if someone has an u/s and finds a problem with the fetus, they now need a miracle for it to disappear. But if no-one knows, then it could be that tefilos for a healthy baby work to remove the problem without anyone knowing about it. (I'm obviously not talking about Tay-Sachs here but other disabilities)

Not the same, because there's nothing a Frum person can do about a sick fetus, besides for Daven.

Quote:

I also want to stress that there are things which are decreed on a person and no amount of hishtadlus and/or bitachon is going to change it. So chas v'shalom to say that a person who has something 'bad' happen to them, it means they are lacking in bitachon.

Noone here thinks otherwise.

busymom

Wed, Sep 20 2006, 9:25 am

I think bitachon simply means trusting that Hashem CAN do anything, but knowing that it doesn't necessarily mean that he WILL. for example, when someone has "the sword on their neck" - like certain situations in the Holocaust or whatever - it is sometimes hard to believe that EVEN NOW Hashem can save me, despite the reality saying that it seems impossible. That's bitachon.

similarly, we should believe that Hashem CAN save a sick person/fetus, CAN heal that tooth, CAN make financial problems disappear, etc. etc. AT ALL TIMES this should be our reality. HOWEVER, at the same time, we must understand that since He runs the world according to the rules of nature, this "miracle" will not necessarily take place just because Hashem CAN make it happen. And therefore, we must do our hishtadlus (and of course we can debate the amount of hishtadlus one needs) in order to bring that yeshuah in a way that's compatible with the laws of nature.

and yes, when all odds are piled against us, we still daven, hope, and beseech Him for our miracle - which CAN happen- but at the same time we know that Hashem sees the whole picture and knows things that we don't and ultimately He'll do what's best for us - even when it doesn't seem like it is.

Motek

Thu, Sep 21 2006, 1:14 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

Now if a couple were to be tested and both found to be carriers, then they would have to be on a very high level of bitachon to have healthy children without doing anything about it.

How would bitachon help them have healthy children?

Quote:

The same idea is if someone has an u/s and finds a problem with the fetus, they now need a miracle for it to disappear.

Different than Tay-sachs because ultrasound readings are very regularly wrong, for boy/girl, size of baby, and problems.

Quote:

I also want to stress that there are things which are decreed on a person and no amount of hishtadlus and/or bitachon is going to change it.

It can be extremely hard to change but as far as I know, absolutely everything negative can be changed through tefilla and teshuva and sometimes, bitachon.

mali wrote:

That we are in a world that demands Hishtadlus.

We're in a religion that requires "schizophrenia" Wink

I.e. you must make your hishtadlus while SIMULTANEOUSLY believing it's all from Hashem and not your own efforts; you must continue to build and do while SIMULTANEOUSLY awaiting Moshiach's coming every day.

busymom - the Chovos Ha'Levavos says that bitachon is trusting that it WILL happen, not just can happen (there's a thread on that called "Bitachon and Thinking Positively" in the Judaism section which I just revived)

shalhevet

Thu, Sep 21 2006, 2:07 pm

Motek wrote:

mummyof6 wrote:

Now if a couple were to be tested and both found to be carriers, then they would have to be on a very high level of bitachon to have healthy children without doing anything about it.

How would bitachon help them have healthy children?

Because there is a 75% chance b'derech hateva of each child being healthy.

Quote:

The same idea is if someone has an u/s and finds a problem with the fetus, they now need a miracle for it to disappear.

Different than Tay-sachs because ultrasound readings are very regularly wrong, for boy/girl, size of baby, and problems.

Agreed.

Quote:

I also want to stress that there are things which are decreed on a person and no amount of hishtadlus and/or bitachon is going to change it.

It can be extremely hard to change but as far as I know, absolutely everything negative can be changed through tefilla and teshuva and sometimes, bitachon.

That is not true. There are gezeros (decrees) that are described as "written in blood" (see Yechezkel I think) that no amount of tefilos and/or hishtadlus can change. See also when Moshe asked Hashem about different things that would happen and the reason.

Motek

Thu, Sep 21 2006, 4:47 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

Because there is a 75% chance b'derech hateva of each child being healthy.

Still not seeing how you are connecting bitachon to the statistics.

Quote:

If you provide more exact sources I would look it up. As far as I know, even a NEVUA for bad can be rescinded, like Ninveh, which is why Yona did not want to go.

Are you thinking about something like the Asara Harugei Malchus where Hashem said it's a gezeira and don't question it? That's not on the individual level.

MOM222

Wed, Sep 27 2006, 11:13 pm

MOM222 wrote:

Motek wrote:

I think you mean 1981:

Quote:

Dor Yeshorim was started in the 1980s by Rabbi Joseph Ekstein, who lost four children to Tay-Sachs disease between 1965 and 1983. In a 2006 interview, Ekstein revealed that while of his first five children four died of Tay-Sachs disease, none of the ones born subsequent to his founding of Dor Yeshorim suffered the condition.

He actually had one child born with Tay-Sachs and the rest heathy after founding Dor Yeshorim.

Motek the information you have is from Wikkipiddia, and it is not correct.

The actual paragraph from Personal Glimpses (page 30) is as follows:

".... Of our first five children, four succumbed to Tay-Sachs, Rachamona litzlan. Of our next six children, only one suffered the disease. I have no doubt that is because of the zechus harabbim of Dor Yshorim."

I knew this and since you did not agree I had to go find my copy of the magazine which took a couple of days. LOL

shalhevet

Thu, Sep 28 2006, 3:25 am

Motek wrote:

Quote:

In Yechezchel Hashem tells him to write a 'taf' on the foreheads of the people who sinned, and also a 'taf' on those who didn't say anything. The difference is the 'taf' for those who sinned is in blodd I.e. the gezeira cannot be rescinded.
Eliyahu Hanavi revealed to one of the Tannaim/Amoraim, in the megilla. It says
בקש לאבדם
and the explanation is
לא בדם
ie Haman's gezeira was lo b'dam - it could be rescinded.

If you want the details you'll have to do the research - sorry Motek, I don't have time to start looking it all up- I'll leave it to you. Smile

Anyway, common sense will tell you this. That there are people who thousands daven for them and it doesn't 'help'.

We say in 'Ulesana tokef': "Mi bekitzo, umi lo bekitzo" ie everybody has an alloted number of years which is their maximum lifespan. EG David Hamelech had none and was 'given' 70 years by Adam Harishon. He couldn't have lived more than 70 years even if he would have gone to all the best doctors and said Tehilim all day. Similarly tefilos, hishtadlus can only help when someone is lo bekitzo. The whole point is that we never know this before so we do daven, do hishtadlus because we assume it is a gezeiro which can be changed.

Motek

Thu, Sep 28 2006, 10:42 pm

MOM222 wrote:

The actual paragraph from Personal Glimpses (page 30) is as follows:

".... Of our first five children, four succumbed to Tay-Sachs, Rachamona litzlan. Of our next six children, only one suffered the disease. I have no doubt that is because of the zechus harabbim of Dor Yshorim."

Uhh, I don't get it. Isn't this PRECISELY what I quoted? I seem to be missing something somewhere What

mummy - I don't know ... Dovid wasn't meant to live more than a day but that changed ... There are recent stories too (one with the Chofetz Chaim) about people giving years of their lives to others. Like you say, bottom line is we do our hishtadlus regardless but I sure would like to know if I'm wasting my time (even if prayer and good deeds are not wasted) on an unalterable gezeira Confused

but then, I don't think they are unalterable, whatever ....