Secular education | Imamother

DrMom

Mon, Sep 19 2011, 11:16 am

Ruchel wrote:

DrMom wrote:

sequoia wrote:

Literature and history are essential, in my view.

I agree. I think being well-educated means being well-rounded, understanding the world around you, learning how to think in a critical way about complex issues, both theoretical and practical -- not just learning what is necessary to make a living.

I think many things I learned in school did not help me or stay in my mind. I think also lots of time is lost over discipline, shhhhhhhh kids!!!, and repeating endlessly, with the exception of very strict schools where there is no shhhhhh and repeating, you do your lesson and too bad for the kids who didn't follow (or understand, sometimes).

If you want a well rounded kid, pushing unnecessary stuff into his mind won't do it. It needs to come from being around well rounded parents, unless he is motivated enough to read a lot and discuss a lot with well rounded people. Unfair but this is my experience.

I am not sure what you are trying to say. One cannot benefit from a well-rounded education unless one has well-rounded parents? How does one get to be a well-rounded parent?

Ruchel

Mon, Sep 19 2011, 11:18 am

DrMom wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

DrMom wrote:

sequoia wrote:

Literature and history are essential, in my view.

I am not sure what you are trying to say. One cannot benefit from a well-rounded education unless one has well-rounded parents? How does one get to be a well-rounded parent?

One cannot receive a well rounded education if it doesn't follow at home, unless one is extremely motivated.
About your last question, well that's where it isn't fair and why it is so difficult for children and grandchildren of less educated people!

DrMom

Mon, Sep 19 2011, 11:40 am

Ruchel wrote:

DrMom wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

DrMom wrote:

sequoia wrote:

Literature and history are essential, in my view.

I am not sure what you are trying to say. One cannot benefit from a well-rounded education unless one has well-rounded parents? How does one get to be a well-rounded parent?

I think saying "There is no point in broadly educating someone who does not have well-educated parents; it will be lost on him anyway" is elitist.

eschaya

Mon, Sep 19 2011, 11:51 am

I believe that a good, long-term secular is very important for some people, while for others it is important to have the basics and a general overview.
I don't agree with the posters who claim that a good secular education can't be done after school. Of the 4 hours of classroom secular education, how much of it is actual learning and how much is discipline, projects and recess. Home schooling parents find that what takes a teacher 45 min to teach a large class can be effectively taught in 10 min. I know that my parents felt that my brothers were not getting an adequate secular education in yeshiva (though they were getting multiple hours' worth a day) so they supplemented it after school - and my brothers came home from yeshive HS around 10 pm - and by the time they graduated HS they were proficient in multivariate calculus, linear algebra, advanced physics and bio, in addition to everything that came before.
For my family, secular education is very important, but it does not have to come at the expense of an intensive religious yeshiva education.

Ruchel

Mon, Sep 19 2011, 12:09 pm

Eschaya, weren't they too tired to work? That's personally my only concern, and it very much interests me as most of the boys schools that interest us kodesh and atmosphere wise don't have a top chol level after BM, and dh and I are very into some of the chol (some of it we would have to supplement even in a public school, btw, because it is not necessarily taught).

I hear some manage with only Sundays and holidays, some even only the last years of HS (so the boy can graduate on his own). Here there are studies you can do if you didn't graduate (graduating involves having learned the full chol program, which includes things some parents deem unnecessary) but your level in maths, French, etc, is good. No idea what we'll do on that, I think it will mainly depend on what each kid wants to do. I imagine a teen is more motivated to learn for a personal project than stam the cursus? When I see how unmotivated we all were, and how so many forgot so much of it, I say it can't be worse.

nylon

Mon, Sep 19 2011, 3:22 pm

amother wrote:

can I add a twist to the OP's thread?
do you think its possible to give your kids a successful secular education with the most important things they need to know, after school hours?
so they learn Kodesh at school, and at home you give them materials to learn what they need for life?

or are there some things you can only learn in a school setting with proper teaching?

If this method worked so well, Hebrew school wouldn't have been a failure (I went, and believe me, it was due to more than just going for only 5 hours a week!) Kids understand priorities and internalize them. If we tell them something is second and extra, they treat it that way.

spoons

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 10:50 am

Where I work most boys do not learn any English and have to go to special classes after school. One lady I spoke with , when I asked if her son (30-40?) can read/comprehend a basic legal type document, said that he'd ask his wife to help him read it.
This is just basic language knowledge, and I think it is extremely important. (just listen to some people being interviewed in certain communities- embarrassing!)

in regards to math, science...I think that is very important, too, but to a lesser extent. I certainly do not remember much and don't need to in day to day living. Yet I'm still glad I learned it.

Seraph

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 12:07 pm

I happen to think that a good secular education is imperative. You can't be a fully functional adult in society without a decent math background, for example.

I happen to think secular education is a misnomer. Most of the "secular subjects" taught aren't specifically secular. Learning how to do math is important for many halachic and torah applications. Science helps us understand certain halachos and also have an appreciation for the wonders Hashem made. Working on reading comprehension, critical thinking skills, and being able to express yourself in writing is good all around, even or especially in the Torah realm, so therefore, language arts classes aren't exactly secular. History- well, those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, and I think its important to know Jewish history and you can only really understand jewish history fully within the context of greater world history. I mean tanach and the gemara are history books in a sense.

The only thing that would make "secular subjects" secular is the attitude with which they're taught. If science is taught as "This is how things work; its not God doing it, but movement of atoms, cellular functons, etc..." then yea, its not just secular, its borderline or complete apikorsus. But if science is taught as "Look at the amazing things Hashem made, how intricate and involved his Bria is, and how much He needs to be involved on a day to day basis- how else do atoms and electrons actually have enough energy to just keep going all the time, etc..." then its not secular, its avodas Hashem.

I do want my kids to learn kosher secular literature; good literature teaches critical thinking skills in a way that not many other things can.

As for math, I don't think ALL math is necessary for everyone. But I think everyone needs to know at least until algebra and geometry, and some trigonometry is useful for daily functioning in the adult world. Calculus and beyond I think are pretty much a waste of time unless you're planning on becoming an engineer or something along those lines. (Coming from someone who learned up until calculus 2, and I was the only non engineering major in my calc 2 class.)

Speaking of secular is in attitude taught- if tanach is taught from a bible analysis perspective, if tanach is taught as "people wrote this, God didn't" then tanach class can also be secular or apikorsus.

I think boys and girls all should have a well rounded secular education. Taught with the right perspective though.

tikva18

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 12:14 pm

sequoia wrote:

A schoolboy was once asked to write down everything he knew about Keats. He wrote, "I don't know anything about Keats. I don't even know what they are."

Sad, but funny. And I think your story has to be fleshed out a little - how old was the schoolboy, etc.

I think secular education is important. Hashem gave us the ability to learn and grow and that doesn't mean that we should totally ignore the limudei chol. How is a person to survive without limudei chol? how will they earn parnassa? how will they function?

That said, I do think (having homeschooled) that it is possible to do it after school hours and Sunday afternoons and still probably round out the child sufficiently.

Ruchel

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 12:20 pm

I deeply regret many "Jewish" authors write dr*ck under the cover of "Jewish fiction", and frum, very charedi shop owners sell these books. My mom used to buy with trust from them, and... yeah. The day she bought a book involving a man raping a headless dead body for her mom's bday, she finally got what I was telling her. I wish I was joking. You have to read every single book you give to a child unless you see it written as kosher on a frum site you respect.

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 1:02 pm

nylon wrote:

amother wrote:

I'm also a Hebrew School graduate. I learned a lot (or at least more than one might expect), but could have learned much more, in less time, possibly in a more pleasant environment, with a tutor.

The failure of Hebrew School (or as they call it nowadays "Religious School") has more to do with the social context - kids don't want to be there, would rather be playing soccer or going to Girl Scouts or whatever with the other kids from public school, often get no reinforcement at home but do get a negative attitude about religious studies. Oftentimes there were less-terrific teachers and less-professional administration than parents should tolerate.

Extra-curricular activities are "extra" and outside of school time, but programs that are appealing to students, that tap into their motivation, that are run expertly - these can work well. Look at many arts and sports programs, or afterschool tutoring programs. Kids participate avidly and benefit tremendously.

So I do believe basic subjects, whether general studies or limudei kodesh, can be taught successfully outside of school, but if that's necessary it raises the question of what the kids are doing all day in school. If school time is used appropriately, the students should have plenty of free hours to pursue their other interests.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 1:10 pm

The principal of my sons' school explained it to be like shoes...You don't focus so much on the shoes, but they're imperative to walking.

If you want to live in society, you need a secular education. But it's not something that you focus all your energy on.

Honestly, to me math and the language of the country are first and foremost (vocabulary, reading comprehension, writing). Science is behind that (understanding how Hashem made the world work). History and literature after that. While I chuckled at the Keats story, I don't think it really would affect that kid from being a productive and contributing member in society for never hearing of him before. Sure, maybe he'd be lost at some random dinner conversation, but he can still hold a job in almost any field without it.