family kicked off flight because of a 2 year olds tantrum

Fabulous

Tue, Mar 13 2012, 11:48 pm

Disclaimer: I did not read the article, only the thread.

If what I am reading is correct, they couldn't take off because the child/ren would not stay still, seated and buckled in. I am the parent of an EXTREMELY active 2 year old and we do travel with him 2-3 times a year. The time on the plane is usually spent sleeping but getting him to sit still for takeoff is beyond difficult. I had a similar situation that we couldn't get him to sit seating and buckled a few months ago and I could easily see it becoming an issue if the staff made it one, because I had to sort of stand for a few minutes to hold him down. She told me to sit down and I told her honestly, it's either him or me (standing) and it's safer for me. As soon as we started moving to the actual runway I quickly sat down, buckled up and worked crazy hard to keep him in the seat as well (much harder to do sitting down than standing up). I would understand, though, if they had made it in an issue that legally they probably would have been in their right to not move until we were all properly seated.

celesteno

Wed, Mar 14 2012, 12:40 am

I wouldn't argue that people with children need to stay home....nor would most people. HOWEVER, there is a line as to what most people are willing to tolerate. I fly a lot and my last several flights have been miserable due to flat out poor parenting. I had a child scream for an ENTIRE 14 hour flight---a child whose parent refused to even attempt to quiet her child after continual offers of assistance from flight attendants and other passengers. It was infuriating and irritating--which basically means I paid $800 to be held captive with a screaming child. Or the time a mother (who wasn't even sitting in my row) let her child run up and down the aisles who ended up in my row hitting my husband and throwing things---a flight attendant had to eventually take the child back to her seat--the mother, was watching a movie and wholly unconcerned. Or the time a mother with a lap child who sat in the row with my husband and I couldn't really contain her child in her lap and I spent the whole trip trying to avoid her child smacking me and bobbing and weaving around his upper body while I tried to read and eat. At a certain point I feel like this--everyone paid several hundred dollars (at least) to fly to wherever you're headed. Everyone owes other passengers a certain level of courtesy. If you know your children don't travel well, do whatever you have to do to not make the experience miserable for everyone else. Respect your fellow travelers. If your child needs toys to be entertained--bring them, if they need books--bring them. It is not anyone else's responsibility to entertain your child-- people understand that children have tantrums, but if you are going to allow or even encourage them to be out of control in a space other people cannot escape they are going to be upset.

hadasa

Wed, Mar 14 2012, 12:56 am

I find it hard to understand the reasoning that a couple should refrain from traveling or even from living in the location of their choice because of the chance that they might experience a toddler tantrum on a plane. I have flown countless times with young children in the past seventeen years, and have bh very rarely encountered any serious difficulties. Surely not serious enough to change my entire lifestyle in order to avoid them. Yes, screaming babies are embarrassing and uncomfortable on a plane, so you try your best to prevent and deal with it and hope it will be OK. IME the sound of the motors drowns out a lot of the screeching.

In the particular case mentioned, I do understand the airline. They are not allowed to take off with a child over two not buckled up, and it seems the parents got her in only after the decision to turn back had been made. I don't think decisions like this on a plane can be reversed so easily.

mo5

Wed, Mar 14 2012, 5:23 am

Just to say: if no flying is the rule for parents, then there should be no international marriages.... Which would be a problem for a lot of the people in the country I live!

Seriously as one who has flown many times with kids, it also depends on the airlines. I find some of the long-distance carriers/crews more tolerant and accommodating ( because after all were spending at least 14 hours together so we may as well be friends ;-) and encountered more difficulties within the USA or with certain airlines.us. Such as, we've landed we're taxiing back to the gate and my nearly 3 toilet trained son is screaming and crying that he needs a toilet....and won't use the pull up he's wearing. If an airline wants they have the discretion to let u use the facilities ( experienced that too) but this airline didn't want. So while the plane meanders around JFK, my kid screams. Not much to do.
Also, the long delays before takeoff, when sitting buckled, no electronics, tray table etc without actually taking off can be very difficult for kids (and adults) so if it's after such a time, it's hard to get em to cooperate.
Thirdly I agree about the us-centric car seat situation. I have an American carseat which is actually not acceptable here, and even so the local airlines flying over to the us are unsure about it. ( took a lot of convincing!)
So the vitriolic comments on that story are what are most appalling not the story necessarily.

m in Israel

Wed, Mar 14 2012, 8:47 am

I do not know the details of this particular story, and obviously parents must do whatever they can to make sure their children are as minimally disruptive as possible. However I agree with many of the other posters that somehow the tolerance level for children is much lower than for others exhibiting rude behavior.

I once flew a flight from Israel to NY (10+ hours) and the individual in the seat in front of me had his seat leaned completely back the entire flight, including during meals, etc. I couldn't open my tray, could barely get out of my seat to go to the bathroom, etc. He wasn't even sleeping most of the time!! It was certainly as disruptive to me as a lap baby next to me would have been, if not more. But I understood that there was nothing I could do. When you are flying on a plane, it means you are cooped up with many different people, some more polite than others, and you are stuck. A child running uncontrollably up and down the aisles sounds inappropriate to me -- but a child crying in their seat -- well, that's part of flying.

HindaRochel

Wed, Mar 14 2012, 10:27 am

mo5 wrote:

Just to say: if no flying is the rule for parents, then there should be no international marriages.... Which would be a problem for a lot of the people in the country I live!

Please name the person who stated a no-fly for parents rule?

Quote:

Seriously as one who has flown many times with kids, it also depends on the airlines. I find some of the long-distance carriers/crews more tolerant and accommodating ( because after all were spending at least 14 hours together so we may as well be friends ;-) and encountered more difficulties within the USA or with certain airlines.us. Such as, we've landed we're taxiing back to the gate and my nearly 3 toilet trained son is screaming and crying that he needs a toilet....and won't use the pull up he's wearing. If an airline wants they have the discretion to let u use the facilities ( experienced that too) but this airline didn't want. So while the plane meanders around JFK, my kid screams. Not much to do.

It would be nice if they would accommodate you, but as you stated, there wasn't much to do. That also was NOT the issue at hand.

Quote:

Also, the long delays before takeoff, when sitting buckled, no electronics, tray table etc without actually taking off can be very difficult for kids (and adults) so if it's after such a time, it's hard to get em to cooperate.

Agreed, and this is the place that airlines need to put in some effort: toys for children, the steward or stewardess taking extra time with the child explaining why they need to buckle up etc.

There just seem to me to be more and more rude flight attendants lately.

Quote:

Thirdly I agree about the us-centric car seat situation. I have an American carseat which is actually not acceptable here, and even so the local airlines flying over to the us are unsure about it. ( took a lot of convincing!)
So the vitriolic comments on that story are what are most appalling not the story necessarily.

I haven't noticed vitriol here. On the page with the story? People who comment on stories are often vitrolic.

33055

Wed, Mar 14 2012, 3:58 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Squishy, I don't really care what happened in this story. I do care that so many people have this attitude that parents of young children should be restricted in terms of air travel.

MaBelleVie, then why are you on a thread about a story you don't care about? Your comment makes no sense in light of the title of THIS thread.

My point has been not that children should be restricted in terms of air travel; but that it is frustrating in closed quarters for the parents not to be seen parenting their child like the women who saw the mom watching her movie while her child ran around the plane. I was not upset with the baby crying on my 11 hour flight, I was upset because of the parents' blase attitude. Their bad parenting woke up a whole plane, not the sweet little innocent baby.

Most passengers have more tolerance for children when the parents are seen to address their behaviors as Fox mentioned.

Barbara

Wed, Mar 14 2012, 4:18 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

If the airline was that concerned about delaying the flight, they wouldn't have caused additional delay by kicking the family off AFTER the child was seated and buckled.

Also, did I forget to mention that I think people in wheelchairs should not be allowed to ride public busses? I hate having to wait for the lift, and the wheelchairs takes up so much space in the bus. People in wheelchairs should just stick to private means of transportation, or not travel at all. Whatever.

So is it your position that no matter how long it takes, we all must wait for the child to sit buckled in her seat. Even if that takes 90 minutes. And if during that time, someone else's toddler has a tantrum -- because he's been stuck sitting there for 90 minutes, not able to get up, no electronics -- and can't settle for another hour, that's OK too. Indeed, if it takes 4 hours for all of the kids to get buckled in at one time, then everyone else should be OK with it. Because ... actually, I can't figure out why.

Its beyond ridiculous to compare this to a disabled person. If it takes 5 minutes to seat a disabled person, we all need to wait 5 minutes. And if it takes 5 minutes to place a car seat and buckle in a compliant toddler, we all need to wait 5 minutes. And 5 minutes more if it takes that long to settle the toddler down. But there comes a point where the balance shifts to the other passengers, and the toddler and her family can reasonably be asked to deplane. Just like a passenger in a wheelchair who refuses to allow his chair to be secured, and wants to wheel up and down the aisles during the commute, would also probably be asked to leave the bus.

yaelinIN

Thu, Mar 15 2012, 9:17 am

Squishy wrote:

Most passengers have more tolerance for children when the parents are seen to address their behaviors as Fox mentioned.

You know I used to think that until this past summer. We were travelling back from Hawaii. My children are very well behaved on the plane and have all (except the youngest) done international travel multiple times. We were all settled in our seats to take off and then the people who were to sit next to us came down the aisle. The lady gave my family an evil look which would curdle milk, screamed for the attendant before she sat down and told her that she would not sit next to those children. My kids looked at me and asked quietly what they had done wrong (they were sitting and reading those sales magazines in the back pocket). I told them that some people had prejudices about children and that they should try to act their nicest. We had a LONG flight to say the least. She was on the next connecting flight as well and continued her campaign even though we did nothing to her then either (thank G-d she was elsewhere on the plane). It continued on the last leg of the flight where my 8 yo son got the stink eye from a young lady seated in front of him. He touched her seat in trying to get up to go to the bathroom (she had her seat fully reclined in his lap) and she screamed at him.

We're going to Japan in a couple of months and I insist we fly a Japanese carrier; they know how to treat everyone with derech eretz.

Seraph

Thu, Mar 15 2012, 9:33 am

Barbara wrote:

Its beyond ridiculous to compare this to a disabled person. If it takes 5 minutes to seat a disabled person, we all need to wait 5 minutes. And if it takes 5 minutes to place a car seat and buckle in a compliant toddler, we all need to wait 5 minutes. And 5 minutes more if it takes that long to settle the toddler down. But there comes a point where the balance shifts to the other passengers, and the toddler and her family can reasonably be asked to deplane. Just like a passenger in a wheelchair who refuses to allow his chair to be secured, and wants to wheel up and down the aisles during the commute, would also probably be asked to leave the bus.

And what if this person's mobility wasn't impaired, but cognitive function? And this mentally disabled person had a tantrum. Then what?

33055

Thu, Mar 15 2012, 9:58 am

yaelinIN wrote:

Squishy wrote:

Most passengers have more tolerance for children when the parents are seen to address their behaviors as Fox mentioned.

I did say most. Very Happy

Probably, those people probably had bad experiences with kids on flights to have such a sensitivity to flying with kids.

I love kids. Even traveling with my own kids on a flight, I dread sitting in front of other kids. Kids fidget. Kids kick the chair in front. For the most part, the parents seem unaware of what is going on. If I mention it to the parents, they apologize and get their kids to stop. Again, for MOST people, the attitude of the parents can help the situation.

Maybe you should recline your son's seat so he has more room. The seats are made for reclining.

Raisin

Thu, Mar 15 2012, 10:07 am

Barbara wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

No I don't think the airline should wait 45 minutes. Most kids would calm down in a few minutes, as this one did. Honestly, the only type of kid I could see having a prolonged tantrum would be sn kid - say one, with autism. I think giving the parents 5 minutes to calm down the kid is fair enough. Which the airline did not want to do. (why do you asssume the parents are lying about the length of time?)

And anyone who wants a luxury flying experience pay for it. Buy a business class ticket, most families with kids do not buy business class tickets. or don't fly. Go out in public, you have to deal with people. Not all people are easy to deal with.

33055

Thu, Mar 15 2012, 10:33 am

Seraph wrote:

Barbara wrote:

And what if this person's mobility wasn't impaired, but cognitive function? And this mentally disabled person had a tantrum. Then what?

This is so disturbing and hurtful. Don't you have any compassion? Obviously, the police would have to be called if this becomes a safety issue.

Parents tolerating bratty behavior can't be compared to a mentally or emotionally disabled adult.

I am the mother of a son with ADHD the complex kind. My son would throw himself on the floor and kick and scream. He would throw his food countless times if it was too hot. It could be luke warm; but for him it might be too hot. He also had sensory issues and was on the spectrum and would freak out over some of the most normal things that he had to walk over. Oh, and he is a twin. I know what it is like to be overwhelmed by a toddler. My son was thrown out of many programs. My husband died when he was young after a prolonged illness; and I had to cope with this alone and with a twin. He was write a painful brace most of the time.

I will tell you that there were situations where I had to be totally on top of him so he would be civilized. For instance at the Shabbos table, I never allowed him to get up. I kept one hand on his plate. This child was always buckled in when we traveled. I could easily have made excuses for him and blamed other people for discriminating.

I see my friends children now being allowed to roam cars not buckled because is easier on the parents. I see kids st Shabbos tables getting up and running around and disturbing the adults.

This past Shabbos, we were someone's house. The boy almost two told his grandma that he was going to pull the table cloth so the shabbos candles would burn the house. He had the grandmother crying. This is a ongoing problem of this child. He pulls the cloth when the candles are lit. My husband told this child in no uncertain terms that he will not touch the cloth. In shul, these kids run around like crazy kids. They throw coffee etc. When confronted by adults with no tolerance for this. They behaved.

Most of the problems with children are really problems with the parents not raising them correct. Some people are better parents just as some teachers are better teachers.

Barbara

Thu, Mar 15 2012, 10:41 am

Raisin wrote:

Barbara wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

The airline said "prolonged." I don't know what that means. By my calculations, it had to have been more than 5 minutes for the story to make sense, since it takes more than 5 minutes to pull away from the gate, etc. But I've also repeatedly said that if it was 5-10 minutes, the airline was wrong. But many other people seem to be arguing that no matter how long it takes, the airline is obligated to wait, and people should just keep quiet about it.

BTW, if you think that all kids calm down in 5 minutes, you were lucky enough never to meet my kid as a toddler.

33055

Thu, Mar 15 2012, 10:43 am

Raisin wrote:

Barbara wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

It was not five minutes. The problem spread to the three year old.

Those parents had a $2000.00 penalty. You can bet this send a message to many parents.

Why shouldn't the financial burden be on the one causing the problem? Sure, we should all become recluses because some people won't control their kids. The majority of people on planes are not children.