SPINOFF on "tuition is killing us"

mummiedearest

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 1:31 pm

so what would you say for me? we don't fit any school hashkafically. I really have a hard time sending my son to a school that is more right-wing, I feel they overstep their boundaries in so many ways. they have the boys there for the majority of the day, and then they want them in school on sundays too. so I have approximately one hour a day with my son, but I have two other kids and can't spend the hour teaching him. he wants to play. the rest of the time at home is supper and bedtime routine. once he starts sunday school, his free time will be spent shuffling him to see various relatives who are upset that we can't visit every week. sunday is also the only day we have to do home repairs and maintenance. so there's shabbos and a few hours a week for me and my husband to counter-teach hashkafa. it's very hard to undo the work of a yeshiva when they have the time advantage over you. I would not send my kids to public school, but I can see the appeal. honestly, they have a much shorter day, and it would be easier to supplement the kids' education if there was time in the day to do it. I would actually like to send my kid to a more left-wing school, but there are various disagreements about that...

I'd really love to find one school of mixed hashkafa that respects the differences in families. sigh. I definitely see the problem with sending a child to a school with a different hashkafa, but there is no school in brooklyn that represents a middle of the road hashkafa, and I'm stuck.

Mommy F.

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 4:29 pm

I wish you could move to our community!
I live in Ottawa, Canada (2 hours from Montreal and 5 hours from Toronto)
the elementary school here is called Torah Academy, it has tuition at:
$8,700.00 for the first child
$8,500.00 for each additional child
(but it's not so hard to get scholarships - even if a parent is making
100k)

Our school has all types of kids,
mostly Orthodox kids but all types.
We have Lakewood kollel kids,
we have modern orthodox kids,
we have kids who have one parent frum and one parent not frum.
from kindergarten till grade 8 there is no school on Sunday.
boys and girls are mixed in the same classes only until grade 4/5.

We have lots of Orthodox shuls and there are lots of job opportunities here too.
We are a government town.
If anyone wants more information about our community I like it here a lot!
And we're always looking for new families,

We also have a 1 year maternity leave in Canada.
The health care and dental care is really good.
Free eye exams for kids every year.

The high school has Sunday school for boys but only in the mornings.
They end school around 5 p.m every day.
You can wear colored collared shirts.
The teachers are black hat but the students don't need to wear black hat.
Being out of town has a lot of advantages.
We have a 2 kosher bakeries, a kosher restaurant, and a large kosher section at the grocery store.
We also can get anything we want delivered from Montreal that has everything any other big city has.

Maybe there are towns similar to ours that may be more laid back, less stressful, and more financially possible for your family.
Good luck!

seeker

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 4:47 pm

amother wrote:

can someone tell me why the MO schools are so much more expensive. I mean they have kodesh and then secular. That's basically the same thing as the more right wing schools. So let's say they have a few more English subjects than the others, so they pay a few more teachers, or they could get by on less teachers teaching more subjects, I don't know? For kodesh all types of schools have Rebbes to pay whether it's MO or whatever. I realize that the teachers in MO school may demand more pay, and be more skilled, have degrees etc.
A large part of it is probably the buildings, and extras, perks. Much of that is not really necessary but a luxury. I just don't understand the huge differences.

Don't take my word for it, but the impression I get is that MO schools spend on well-rounded, higher quality education. Your more yeshivish yeshiva likely has no phys ed program, no arts, and no science lab - or at most a very rudimentary one. If they even have "phys ed" at all, it doesn't involve a qualified gym teacher or equipment, more likely it's a rebbi babysitting a bunch of boys with a basketball in the lunchroom. In other subjects, too, the teachers might be wonderful teachers but it's rare to find one with a college degree in either teaching or the subject they teach. The MO schools are more likely to have a structured program with certified teachers in most or all subjects. You need to pay more for certified teachers, because if you don't most will need to move to public schools or the private schools that pay. Whereas the more yeshivish schools would hire any of a zillion seminary graduates. I think a lot of them do a fabulous job and I'm not knocking the yeshivish yeshivas, just explaining why their costs might be dramatically lower.

ora_43

Sat, Jun 23 2012, 5:54 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

Ora,

I think its harder to be told day in and day out "Oh your family does that? Assur. Your Rabbi said that? He's wrong." (yes, that happened to me consistently throughout elementary school and really made me question Orthodoxy - I was one confused 14 year old who probably would be OTD if I didn't have a solid foundation in my HS. There was NOTHING from my elementary school I thought worth salvaging and looking back I agree with my assessment)

Not all "right wing" schools would do that. Of course you could always get a bad teacher even if the principal says the school accepts people with different hashkafot, but chaval to assume that it will turn out that way.

What about the ability to read Hebrew, read Rashi, knowledge of Torah and mitzvot, etc? I hope you got that, at least, from your school.

I think that's one of the hardest parts of integrating. When my dh went to a DL high school he had to work hard to catch up in chol subjects his first year. A friend from a non-frum had a much much harder time catching up in kodesh (and he'd gone to frum schools until middle school).

Quote:

While its hard to go against the grain when everyone is totally different, it makes a more clear separation.

I still don't see why it would be more clear, but OK.

Quote:

But that's part of my baggage - I would rather my kids not be exposed to what I think of as a harmful haskafa to their soul.

I wouldn't want that either. But if I had to pick one of two hashkafot that I don't agree with, I'd go with almost any frum hashkafa over anything else. Worst case scenario if your kid decides to follow the other hashkafa, at least they'll be keeping mitzvot.

But again, it's also about the best case scenario. Iy"H your kid follows your hashkafa despite pressures in other directions - so the work of catching them up on chol subjects from a starting point of "not quite as strong chol subjects" will be a piece of cake compared to trying to teach them kodesh from a starting point of "nothing."

Quote:

In my HS, we did have some PS kids and some non-religious kids, They seemed well adjusted.

They probably thought you were well adjusted too Wink

amother

Sun, Jun 24 2012, 3:15 am

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

Would it be possible for you to find 10-25 hours a week to start an additional business, without giving up your chosen career?

Real estate is a good idea; I find that most wealthy people invested in real estate. My DH invests and manages properties. A newly married guy just asked my DH to help him find a 50K house to buy here in Baltimore. A lot of NY and Israeli investors buy here in Baltimore because you can get decent houses for 50K. (Not anywhere near the frum neighborhoods though!) This newlywed will buy this 50K house for cash. The rent is $900 a month. 900 x 12 = $10,800. That means, in 5 years the house is paid off. We can say in 6 years it's paid off, just in case there are a few months of vacancy over the years between tenants, and repairs that need to be done.

So, after year 6, he has an additional income of $900 a month. And if he doesn't want to be bothered with hearing from the tenant that the house needs a plumber, or showing the house to prospective tenants in case the present one leaves, he can hire guys like my husband to manage it for him. My husband will take the first month's rent, 10% of the rent of other months (so this owner will get 810 a month instead of 900), and charge some kind of fee each time a repair has to be taken care of.

Yes, it's a risk. Neighborhoods change, mortgage rates change, if you rent it out to a family paying with Section 8, those laws change. I think in this day and age, having an IRA is a risk- with over 14 billion of debt, who is to say that this country's money will be worth anything when I want to retire in 35 years?

Tranquility, I posted about this a month or two ago, asking for advice. I live in Israel and I wanted to join the many Israelis who buy investment properties in the US and rent them out via property management. But I was advised by a couple of imamothers that this is a very bad idea, and that expenses like break-ins, bed bugs, evicting tenants and so on would make it not worth my while. I was told that unless I live in that city and manage the property myself, I would not be making any profit.
Also some people in Israel told me that property management would be taking advantage of me (for example, hiring the most expensive contractors every time something broke down), and I would have no recourse.
I'm very curious to hear your take on this. Especially since the housing prices in Baltimore sound amazing (a 50K house with 900$ rent!) My original idea was to use up my own savings and mortgage some of my own house, and buy at least 5 houses at that price. It seems like you and your dh have experience in the area. I'd be very grateful if you could advise me if long distance investing is a good idea. (If you prefer, I could pm you for this information).

amother

Sun, Jun 24 2012, 8:29 am

eytse wrote:

I posted (anonymously) on the "tuition is killing us" thread about sending kids to public school. I wrote that my husband makes about 100K a year and that when I finish grad school (Ph.D.) in 2-3 years, I will likely be able to make about 55K. We have two children (not yet in school) and I can't imagine not having more. If we have 4 kids, when they're all in school, that would be about 100K annually in tuition costs at the kind of MO day school that is really the only option, hashkafically, for us. So, that means I would need to gross 150K in addition to his income, in order for us to pay tuition AND continue paying our mortgage, student loans, savings, IRAs, kids college, etc.

We have been married for 5 years, and we have never truly gone on vacation. We went "away" for a long weekend once the first year we were married, and once last month, for our 5th anniversary. Literally, 4 nights in a bed and breakfast. Nothing fancy. My problem with tuition is not that I want to go on lavish vacations, it's that I want to achieve a reasonable amount of financial security.

So, here is the point of my post: I need some REAL advice. Should I abandon the academic work that I deeply care about, in order to try and make more money? What jobs would make me that much, anyway? The only thing I can come up with, maybe, is real estate, which might make me that much after 5-10 years of working my behind off... but it's still a big gamble... Any other ideas about higher paying jobs, anyway? I'm super-smart and capable, just the product of an excellent liberal arts education with few tangible "job skills"...

OR, should I pursue my academic career, abandon the idea of a day school education, and know that I'm removing myself and my children from the MO community? But at least I'll be able to retire, and maybe allow my kids to go to college without saddling themselves with insurmountable debt...

OR, should I throw my financial aid application in, and subject myself to the humiliation of being forced to account for every latte that I put on my credit card? And turn over every cent to the school and not be able to save? Or, is this even actually true? Do MO day schools (think Ramaz, SAR, etc.) actually demand to see your credit card statements? Do they allow you to continue your 401K contributions? How much more do they allow you to save? How does this ACTUALLY work?

Can someone give me REAL advice? I am loosing too much sleep over this, please, someone tell me what I should do?

Eytse --

I don't know if anyone has addressed your questions yet.

First things first. I have "never" heard of a school denying financial aid because someone enjoyed an occasional latte. Or even because they went on an annual, reasonable vacation.

So why do they ask these questions? Because there is a point beyond reason. Where the Levins are leasing a new mini van every 3 years, spending every Pesach at a hotel, skiing in Colorado every winter break, taking a 2-week high end vacation every summer, visiting Israel every other year, living in a 7-figure house, and crying poverty. True, non day school story. My non-O brother attends a shul which offers free Hebrew school to members. He was approached by a neighbor -- we can't afford to join, our daughters want to go to Hebrew school, can you say they're your kids so they can go. My brother gently pointed out that maybe they could keep the kids home from overnight camp, and use that money for synagogue dues. "Oh, but they NEED to go to camp. Otherwise, how could we spend our 2 weeks in Europe every summer?"

No one expects families to have no savings. No one expects families to live in cardboard boxes over grates. But they do expect that they will view tuition as a real obligation, not as the last thing to pay after doing whatever they want.

If you have a school in mind, I suggest you give them a call and talk about these matters, to ease your mind. Using the schools you mention, you can call Benjamin Brown, Business Manager at Ramaz, at 212-774-8035, or Debra May, by phone at SAR, 347-274-3620. Both schools use FACTS (as do most MO schools, as far as I know), and you can see what they ask here https://www.factstuitionaid.com/facts/gaindex and https://www.factstuitionaid.co.....t.pdf

sarahd

Sun, Jun 24 2012, 9:10 am

amother wrote:

I'm very curious to hear your take on this. Especially since the housing prices in Baltimore sound amazing (a 50K house with 900$ rent!) My original idea was to use up my own savings and mortgage some of my own house, and buy at least 5 houses at that price. It seems like you and your dh have experience in the area. I'd be very grateful if you could advise me if long distance investing is a good idea. (If you prefer, I could pm you for this information).

I don't think the 50K house is in the frum neighborhood. And if it is, maybe a foreclosure (that dozens of families will be after, I bet) it's likely it'll need a lot of work. I know someone trying to sell a house on the edge of the frum community in the old neighborhood who's asking, and should get, iy"H, 2x+ that.

When someone buys an investment property, as amother seems to want to, they don't need it to be in the frum area.

saw50st8

Sun, Jun 24 2012, 10:26 pm

ora_43 wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

Quote:

While its hard to go against the grain when everyone is totally different, it makes a more clear separation.

I still don't see why it would be more clear, but OK.

Quote:

But that's part of my baggage - I would rather my kids not be exposed to what I think of as a harmful haskafa to their soul.

Quote:

In my HS, we did have some PS kids and some non-religious kids, They seemed well adjusted.

They probably thought you were well adjusted too Wink

IME, All right wing schools do that. In large part because its easier to include a stricter opinion into mutar than a lenient one.

Do I care if they learn Rashi in school? Not if their soul is damaged. I can teach them basic judaic studies and get them tutors if needed. But if their soul is destroyed, its a lot harder to bring them back. I think a black hat is a more dangerous weapon than most of the exposure they recieve in Public School. I would rather my kids not be shomer mitzvot but have an intact soul than be shomer mitzvot and destroyed.

black sheep

Mon, Jun 25 2012, 1:45 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

amother wrote:

saw50 - what do you mean about a damaged soul?

I mean that I think right wing philosophy is damaging. I don't want my daughters taught tznius the way it has been in RW schools. I think its VERY damaging (it was for me).

I don't want them to learn that the internet is the root of all evil.

I don't want them to learn that its ok for your Rabbi to hit you as a form of punishment (this went on in the boys program in my elementary school but not the girls - and its still going on today)

I don't want them to learn that its ok to have kids and shirk your responsibility to support them.

I think being RW is going further and further away from true Torah. I realize I am the minority in this opinion.

am I going to be considered a "black sheep" if I say I completely agree, especially with the bolded? we currently do have our kids in very right wing schools. I am in a tough place because I relate to black hat life of about ten years ago, but over the last ten years the philosophies have become so extreme that they don't seem like true torah anymore to me. (and to many of my friends, I just think people are afraid to complain about it.)