Sometimes, a little EFFORT is required...

JRKmommy

Thu, Nov 30 2006, 6:05 pm

I share office space with a number of other professionals, including other lawyers.

A newer family lawyer has been asking me for advice. Flattering - but at some point, I've just got to laugh or say "get off your tuchus".

So here's the basic conversation:

Newer family lawyer (NFL): Can we talk? I'm barely making any money, and am starting to reconsider this whole thing.

Me: Are you thinking about working for someone else as an associate.

NFL: Did that already - it didn't work out. It's so hard to work for other people, there are personality conflicts, and they basically make money off of your work.

Me: Well, how are you promoting yourself?

NFL: You know, I'm just starting out and don't want to spend money....

Me: Have you done up a website for yourself? I remember telling you a few times about how I did mine, and it's only $14/mo. I did it up myself.

NFL: I don't know if I can really do that. How do you get your clients? People tell me I should think about a different location.

Me: Most of them I get from the internet. I get some referrals as well through other lawyers, or from organizations that I've worked with. I've also done some advertising with X magazine and a small Yellow Pages ad.

NFL: Even if I did a website, who'd find it?

Me: Well, do some research of search engine optimization. You can also do pay-per-click advertising with Google.

NFL: I can't afford the expensive Yellow Pages ads.

Me: You can do a few lines for around $25/mo, and that gets you an online listing too. If you don't market yourself - is there any way that anyone who needs you would even be able to find you?

NFL: I guess not.

Me: Did you happen to follow up about the legal software I mentioned?

NFL: No - I really don't want to start with expenses. Maybe as things build up?

Me: Well, without the software, how do you do the work? I sometimes have clients who just need some quick work done - but you need the software to do the court forms, agreements or calculations properly.

NFL: Well, I just do the calculations on paper.

Me: What happens when you need to figure out tax implications, or percentages of income for spousal support, or the effect of the child care tax credit?

NFL: Huh? What's that about taxes?

Me: Well, I'll try to help you out right now. I've got a case where I really need someone to just spend a few hours putting together a Trial Record - it's all right here, and I can answer any questions and pay you right away for your work....

NFL: Whoa, that looks too complicated for me. I don't know anything about trials, and don't think I can do it.

Me: But it's just simple paperwork - I'm the one dealing with the client and doing the trial! You'd be doing me a favor.

NFL: Sorry.

Hey, I'd love to help ya - but give me a break! If you don't want to work for someone else who'd give you clients and experience and equipment, if you don't make some effort to market yourself, if you don't make sure to have the basic knowledge and tools so that you'd actually be able to help a client who did manage to find you, if you don't want to accept credit or debit cards so that you could actually get paid, and if you won't do work that I'm prepared to give you - what exactly will ya do?

amother

Fri, Dec 01 2006, 1:51 pm

JRKmommy wrote:

I share office space with a number of other professionals, including other lawyers................

If you consider this question an invasion on your privacy, please ignore it. You're obviously a lawyer, and are reaping its' rewards of pride and fulfillmet etc. Why is it that most FFB girls are discouraged from pursuing careers that schools say are too time consuming to be good mothers and career women at the same time? Are you FFB? I have spoken to frum female lawyers who say that they are working a fraction of the time that their former Bais Yaakov classmates are and are making many times the salary. Why are schools so vehemently against frum girls going into law and other advanced education? I imagine that part of it is the mingling of the sexes in law school, etc. I have brilliant daughters who were told in class that the less they further their secular education, the happier they'll be. What do you have to say about that?

JRKmommy

Fri, Dec 01 2006, 3:12 pm

Amother - sounds a bit nutty to me, but then again, I'm not a Bais Yaacov grad. You'd have to ask folks in that circle about their attitude.

For what it's worth - I certainly know LOTS of Jewish female lawyers - my law school was approx. 20 - 25% Jewish, and a little over 50% female. I know observant Jewish lawyers, both male and female. Professional careers are certainly not discouraged in the MO community.

Like anything else, it does take some effort and creativity to have a family-friendly practice - but it can be done, esp. if you have your own practice. I've got a laptop so I can do some work from home at night, and my office is only a 15 min drive from home. I work my schedule around Jewish holidays, school events, etc. and my income allows us to have a nanny and pay for dayschool tuition. From that POV, I'd say that it is suited to a frum lifestyle.

Now, it is true that the courses are giving through a university - but from what I understand, some sems give undergrad degrees, and studying Jewish law is excellent preparation for law school (we really do have an advantage here - and that's part of the reason there are so many Jewish lawyers). In my particular field, the issues can be tough and require a strong stomach, no question about it. The flip side, though, is that there really is an opportunity to make a difference in people's lives, and provide some guidance precisely when they are at their lowest point.

amother

Fri, Dec 01 2006, 3:47 pm

JRKmommy wrote:

What a shame- "a mind is a terrible thing to waste".My daughters would have loved it and would not be as financially dependent as they are now. I guess there have been cases where the mingling of sexes in law school has led to intermarriages and other problems though, which is the reason that frummer schools in Brooklyn dissuade their students.

Crayon210

Sun, Dec 03 2006, 1:06 pm

amother wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

You think that's why girls are discouraged from attending law school?

One of the reasons- increasing the possibility of intermarriage and/or lessening of Frumkeit by meeting irreligious classmates and socializing with them which often leads to marrying irreligious Jews.

They're often told it's too time consuming a career, but what from what I've heard from practicing female lawyers, they have the option of less hours in certain fields like real estate, and making ten times the money.

What do you and others think the reasons are?

I don't think it has to do with intermarriage or secular influences as much as it has to do with the fact that frum women are not raised to be career women, and not to set themselves up to struggle with the challenge of career vs. family.

amother

Sun, Dec 03 2006, 1:32 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

When they're less secularly educated, they have more of a struggle to put food on the table. They end up, often as brilliant women, having to make the boss coffee and do simple boring tasks like shlepping boxes when need be, to get their paycheck. They often are envious of those that were not disuaded from higher secular education. I believe the struggles they deal with are harder, in addition to the nagging feeling of what they could have been/done.