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Money & cheating



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ForeverYoung

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Post Tue, Mar 08 2005, 7:49 am
I was reading the "Gov assist & us" thread & desided to post this:

A Rav was talking about people cheating the government;
about people making parnassa in non-kosher businesses;
(inappropriet as well as dishonest)

He said:

"Money gets into everyhting. It gets into learning (tuition; suppoort of son-in-law), into food, into tzedaka, into EVERYTHING.
If the money is obtained via cheating, than everything in your life is built upon the unclean $ and there is not purity in something built on the foundation of a sin. It is not the same.

This is just a point for people to think about....
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2005, 8:47 am
FY- im not sure where this thread will lead differently than the last thread, and I dont condone cheating, but in some cases people have different opinions on what is actually cheating and what is not.

for example, lets say someone works for an organization that pays him 2000 a month, and lets say the maximum you are allowed to earn to be on medicaid is 1800. if he says to the one in charge of writing out the checks, "anyway I need to give 200 dollars a month maaser, ill give it to this organization and you pay me only 1800 a month." that way, he payed his maaser, he really is only getting 1800 a month whether he pays it to this organization or to another one, and he can still be eligible for medicaid. there is no way that he can pay for health insurance for his family otherwise.
is this cheating? some would say yes and some would say no.

I know Rabbis get a certain percentage of their paycheck called parsonage which they dont have to pay taxes on. I doubt they report it because they dont have to pay taxes on it. some would say they have to report it anyway, I guess, and some would say they dont have to report it.

people really go by what they feel is right and what they feel is wrong. which is why I think there is no way anyone should be telling others (from the other thread) what is right and what is wrong.

as a last point, I heard a talk show host a while ago tell someone who needed to get medicare for her elderly parents, to sell the house they own and put it in her own name, and that way her parents will have no income or assets and be eligible for medicare. is that cheating? is it against the law? do you think that talk show host should be arrested? if so why hasnt she been? shes pretty famous and thousands of people heard her say it. people see it more as a "trick" than as cheating, and maybe people see working partly off the books the same way.
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ForeverYoung

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Post Tue, Mar 08 2005, 9:12 am
RG, all I wanted to do in this thread is to give people something to think about.

I am not looking for a new discussion, b/c we can go on forever w/out coming to a constractive solution.

THis statement made a strong impression apon me.

Rav Pam said that some $, even when you can keep it al pi halacha, will just not brign anything good (ei, an item a store clerk forgot to scan, etc). There is no bracha in it.

The discuaaion is in the "Gov assist & us" thread.

This is just food for thought.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2005, 4:05 pm
RG wrote:
people really go by what they feel is right and what they feel is wrong.


some go by feeling and some have a rav they ask

and in the other thread, rabbonim who gave these heterim were denigrated by posters who are not exactly poskim themselves Confused

and let's remember that cheating and smuggling were a way of life for millions of Jews in Europe and it was permissible, al pi halacha because the gentiles made the laws biased against Jews (and even when it wasn't biased, stealing and lying were a way of life in the Soviet Union so that people could live with basic necessities and not die!)

dina d'malchusa dina - following the law of the land, does not apply if the law of the land is corrupt and/or targets Jews unfairly

one famous story about smuggling was when R' Levi Yitzchok of Berditchev was able to get silk, tobacco or any other exclusive item he wanted from Jews who smuggled these items, but when he asked for chometz the Jews looked at him in horror, for it was Pesach when of course they had no chometz

he asked them this to point out the special quality of Jews that when the govt.'s policemen were all over and ready to apprehend those who did things illegally, it didn't stop the Jews from smuggling, but Hashem does not have policemen checking out our homes for chometz, yet Jews comply with the halacha and beyond

Quote:
... tell someone who needed to get medicare for her elderly parents, to sell the house they own and put it in her own name ...


of course it isn't cheating, for the daughter has the right to own that house

it's a way in which knowledge of the law is used to one's advantage and that's perfectly okay
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2005, 5:13 pm
Plus during world war 2 passports were forged etc etc
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ForeverYoung

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Post Tue, Mar 08 2005, 5:30 pm
This was not my point.

I had only 1 point to make, and it was to make people think.

The rest is up to each one of us.
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Rivka




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 10 2005, 2:15 pm
FY, once you post up a thread, you have to be ready for people to answer to it and more often than not disagree.
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ForeverYoung

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Post Thu, Mar 10 2005, 5:34 pm
Wink, Rivka.

Actually, I didn't ask, didn't judge, did try to convince.

I just made a statement & asked people to just keep it in mind.

What do I get back? - Answers to questions that are not mine. I do not know who they're talking to. Most of them actually should be in the other thread.
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Rivka




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Mar 12 2005, 4:18 pm
true but you don't have to read through so many pages on this thread!
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ForeverYoung

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Post Sat, Mar 12 2005, 6:05 pm
Twisted Evil lol
can't beat your logic!! Wink
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1stimer




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Mar 12 2005, 11:19 pm
Reuven's colleague was about to be investigated by the irs for fraud. He called up Rav Shimon Schwab to ask him what he was allowed to tell the irs:

Reuven: 'there is a frum man who is about to be investigated by the irs for fraud...'

Rav Schwab: 'What!?!'

Reuven: 'there is a frum man...'

Rav Schwab: 'someone who cheats cannot be called frum.'
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