feeling the pain of tisha b'av- I think we have it backwards

tsiggelle

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 4:33 pm

yogabird wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

If HaShem doesn't like the way we observe Tisha B'av,let Him take it away from us !!!

I totally agree! It's almost unreasonable to expect us to mourn something we've never had to begin with!

So you think tisha beav should've been for only a few generations, although the beis hamikdash wasn't rebuilt after a few generations and we are still waiting?

Anyone remember how the story with Napoleon goes? The one where he wonders why we were still mourning the Beis Hamikdash , and what he said then.

sneakermom

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 5:05 pm

I think many people are just surviving. If they would have to mourn the beis hamikdosh on top of that.....who knows?

I think that are mourning is subconscious. We are lacking something we can't put a finger on. We want to be healed from this galus but don't know anymore how to ask for it. We need Hashem to come back and save us.

In the meanwhile we can try our best to do good things and to make this world a place for Hashem to be comfortable in.

Volunteer

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 5:30 pm

Thank you to the OP for beginning this vital topic. I think that you speak for many, many people, if not the majority of people, who have trouble "getting into it" on 9 AV. I, personally, have the opposite problem. I stopped going to shul years ago because I felt like a freak.

I think we have been mislead about what we really feel on 9 AV. We do not mourn mainly for the loss of the Temple, the State, or even the millions of souls who have perished over the generations. We mourn because it had to be destroyed. All that we had built had to be destroyed in order to save us from ourselves. We messed up so much, and became such bad examples for the world, that the edifices that we corrupted had to be torn down. The Beit HaMikdash was destroyed physically because we already had torched it spiritually by using it for show as a substitute for true connection to God, instead of a means to fill every aspect of our lives with Godliness. In order to preserve the mission which we're destined to fulfill as Ohr LaGoyim, we had to demonstrate the Torah message another way. By being the examples of how corruption leads to destruction.
Is our generation any better? Am I any better? Am I fulfilling my personal mission here on earth? ...

When Hashem feels our disconnection, He cries and mourns over us because He still loves us in all the pain. Somehow, His cries reverberate deep within our hearts but we don't usually know what that inner distress and emptiness is. So we impulsively try to fill the void with something else, out of confusion... knowing deep inside that the void is still there growing inside, and it may one day overwhelm us. But there is hope because at least those people who feel that gnawing sense of emptiness and need can learn to recognize those feelings for what they truly are- cries of the soul for nourishment. At least we are not totally dead to the horrifying monster the inner void has become.
So we face a stark choice. Either walk over to the edge of the void, uncover it a bit, and face it, though we risk being overwhelmed and consumed by it. Or, we can continue to ignore it and just wait until it overtakes us anyway. The God of Israel longs for connection to all of us, no matter who we are, or what we have done, or not done. Even if I couldn't change the world, or even change my fate, I can at least change myself, and my relationship with the Almighty.

yogabird

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 2:25 am

tsiggelle wrote:

yogabird wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

If HaShem doesn't like the way we observe Tisha B'av,let Him take it away from us !!!

I totally agree! It's almost unreasonable to expect us to mourn something we've never had to begin with!

Oh come on! It's a (chassidish [?]) quip! No one's suggesting abolishing tisha b'av. It's sort of a way of telling G-d that this galus has been going on for too long, and we're so far removed from the bais hamikdash and all that it stood for, and that the only way for us to really appreciate what it means is for him to give it to us NOW!

you know, like the "shuvi ailai ve'ashuv aleichem" or "hashiveinu hashem eilecha venoshuva" debate...

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 8:39 am

chocolate moose wrote:

If HaShem doesn't like the way we observe Tisha B'av,let Him take it away from us !!!

Well, if R' Levi Yitzchak found his way onto imamother, I'd say that's one troll I'd allow to stay!
Beautiful, Moosey.

I'm just catching the rest of the thread now. Lots of great stuff.
One thought about crying: we all know about the bechiya shel chinam idea. If on occasion we can bring ourselves to good, pure tears, it's not a bad thing.

I wonder if anyone else heard this, or knows of it. This was from Rabbi Kirzner, z"l, on suffering (especially powerful in light of his having terminal cancer at the time): he was quoting from Rav Nachman on tears, and said that there's a concept to rub the tears into your face when you cry. Does anyone know about this? Thanks!

yogabird

Wed, Jul 17 2013, 8:59 am

PinkFridge wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

If HaShem doesn't like the way we observe Tisha B'av,let Him take it away from us !!!

PinkFridge to the rescue again! I shoulda known to attribute this one to R' Levi Yitzchak!