Split from religious exemption for not vaxing

ally

Sat, Aug 24 2013, 2:14 pm

5*Mom wrote:

ally wrote:

5*Mom wrote:

If you're having a discussion with me, then have a discussion with me. I have said nothing about pharm companies and their money interests. Neither do I get my information from random websites. You can't lump everyone who takes a position that is different than your own all in one category, assume they are all the same and interchange their arguments; this issue is far more nuanced than that. Well, actually you can, but then it's not a rational, intelligent discussion.

I'm not lumping everyone in one category, but it is quite obvious to me that the majority (not all) of anti-vax posters on this site have absolutely no understanding of scientific theory or methodology in general, let alone the specifics of immunology.
So when you post a post that portrays the research and decision making process of the WHO and the people who are reading "realfarmacy.com" as equivalent, you are playing with fire. And I felt it was relevant to preempt the conspiracy theories that accompany 90% of the vaccine posts on this site.

Darling, I don't equate the two and I challenge you to show me where I ever posted any such thing. I think you need to work a bit harder at keeping track of individual posters. We don't all speak for each other and there are more than just 2 positions in this discussion.

I am not your darling, thank you.
Do you not see that even though you were not equating the two, it is very easy (especially for all the amothers here who seem to lack any critical thinking skills) to misinterpret your position and abuse it?
If we were corresponding by PM, I would say that you are right. But in the context of this thread, I think my comments were perfectly valid.

5*Mom wrote:

ally wrote:

If you are not trying to say that all decision making processes are equal, I don't really understand the point of your post at all. It seems to support the idea of vaccination by showing that the decision to vaccinate is continuously revised and changes in risk vs benefit are considered...even resulting in changes in policy.

Now you've gotten to the heart of the issue: Process.

No, not all processes are equal. Process is also separate from conclusion. I am supporting scientific process, not realwhatever.com--never even heard of it, nor Jenny McCarthey before I read her name in Barbara's post, but here's the part I think too many people have difficult with:

2 people can conduct the same process and reach 2 different conclusions. There is more than one right answer because the process, when done properly, involves taking individual factors into consideration and reaching a conclusion that is based on the specific person in a specific place at a specific time. It's like psak halacha in that way. This is not to say that there is no wrong answer; of course there is but there is not only 1 right answer for all people in all situations at all times.

Said another way, not everyone who has made a decision not to vaccinate a particular child against a particular disease at a particular time is relying on junk science. In fact, I haven't met a single person like this irl, amother above notwithstanding. You really need to stop lumping people together; people are far more nuanced than you make them out to be.

Well obviously not everyone makes these decisions based on junk science and there are valid reasons not to immunise. Take the immunocompromised for example. Or people with recorded allergies or adverse reactions in the family. Noone is attacking them for not getting their vaccinations.

-edited for quotes

Last edited by ally on Sun, Aug 25 2013, 5:14 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Sat, Aug 24 2013, 10:49 pm

marina wrote:

amother wrote:

GreenEyes26 wrote:

amother wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Vax or not is a big topic (we vax partially and delayed etc).

Now, religious exemption sits bad with me. It is not halacha to not vax, and if they know other Jews they will know that. We also suffered enough of the nasty Jews spreading diseases stereotypes Crying

A person is allowed a personal religious belief. His belief is based on his scriptures, in this case the Bible. I am entitled to my own private and personal interpretation of the Bible; it does not need to be a part of an organized and recognized religion (such as Judaism). Claiming a religious exemption has got nothing to do with being Jewish or with halacha.

The difference is, Seventh Day Adventist's or Jehova's Witnesses or whoever it is that refuse all medical treatment, that is *part* of their religion. Refusing life-saving vaccines is *not* in any way, shape or form part of the Bible - no matter how you interpret it. Your reasoning is, "I don't want to vax my kids because blah blah blah..." and then you use the "Bible" to justify it. Not seeing in the Bible that it's forbidden and going from that. Your starting point is your "informed" decision not to vax, and then perverting the Bible, or using any means necessary, to get an exemption.

I will repeat: Legally one is allowed a personal religious belief.

I am entitled to be a crazy lunatic who decided that based on V'nishmartem me'od l'nafshoseichem, my own made-up religion (called the Loonies) dictates to refuse life-saving vaccines. I am author of a rabbinic responsa written by a Loonie-annointed rabbi who declared vaccines to be against the Loonie interpretation of the Bible's commandments. How dare you tell me that the Loonie version of the Bible is perversion?!

Again, Jewish law does not come into play.

That's fine. But, please, when someone asks you what religion you are, explain that you are a Loony and say nothing about Judaism.

None of the non-vaxers I know identify themselves as Jewish in reference to their decision not to vaccinate. In fact, I'd say that those who do are the real Loonies. LOL

groisamomma

Sat, Aug 24 2013, 10:58 pm

esteec wrote:

Pink Fridge- right, it would seem like that-- however some things are deemed neglectful, like not filling a mouth full of cavities (dentists are mandated reporters on this, if a kid has a bunch of cavities and the parent does not take care of them they can be reported- 2 dentists in my immediate family and this has happened) or putting a baby on a vegan diet, or not seeking medical intervention when the kid needs it-- like the recent cases of "faith healing". vaccinations were not in the same category.

I'm big on vaccinating, with a spaced out schedule, but by 6 they are caught up. My doctor offers 2 schedules- the regular and alternative.

And I did take lots of Master's level science classes including epidemiology, chemistry, physiology... and in my opinion not vaccinating on diseases which can kill a child is neglectful. I live in a "crunchy" neighborhood where I have friends who do not vaccinate and while it irks me I've learned it's not worth a discussion because no matter what I say they will not change their minds from their own research, which consists of a few articles and maybe a short book. They are good, well meaning people, but don't get it.

I'm not going to follow this post because there will be attacks, and when there's heat I stay out of the kitchen. Wishing you all the very best.

What's a crunchy neighborhood?

ally

Sun, Aug 25 2013, 5:16 am

amother wrote:

marina wrote:

amother wrote:

GreenEyes26 wrote:

amother wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

That's fine. But, please, when someone asks you what religion you are, explain that you are a Loony and say nothing about Judaism.

None of the non-vaxers I know identify themselves as Jewish in reference to their decision not to vaccinate. In fact, I'd say that those who do are the real Loonies. LOL

Do you not see that it is inconsistent to consider your religious persuasion as "Orthodox Jewish" in all areas of your life except for when it comes to vaccinating?