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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions
Orthodox Girls Wearing Tefillin
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 12:17 pm
Barbara wrote:
AIUI, its a bit of a legend.

However, the Talmud does apparently state that Michal, daughter of King Saul, wife of King David, wore tefillin. Eruvin 96a-b; Yerushalmi, Berachot 2:3 and Eruvin 10:1; see Tosafot, Rosh Hashanah 33a, s.v. haRebbi. (I'm taking this from an article, I assume the citation is accurate.)

But if you believe that laying tefilin in assur, do you also believe that all other time-bound mitzvot are forbidden to women? If not, explain the difference.


I don't. The difference to me is that the sources that forbid women from wearing tefillin do not forbid women from fulfilling other time-bound mitzvos (and sometimes commend them for fulfilling them).

As to why tefilllin are different, as I mentioned upthread, the wearing of tefillin requires a "guf naki," a clean body. Someone who is unable to fulfill that halachic mandate should not wear tefillin at all. This is the reason why, even though the mitzvah of tefillin is to wear them all day long, our custom is to wear them only for a short period of time, during Shachris -- the concerns about guf naki override the mitzvah of wearing tefillin all day. Hence women, who are not obligated at all in tefillin should certainly not risk wearing tefillin with an unclean body and should refrain from wearing them at all.

(As an interesting aside, Tosfos on Eiruvin 96a cites a Pesikta that the Chachamim did indeed object against Michal's wearing of tefillin.)
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 12:48 pm
Barbara wrote:
I am aware of one text that forbids women laying tefillin. Every other source I am aware of says its OK, even if not recommended.

How many is a "plethora"? Twenty? A hundred? Let's settle on an even dozen. Pre-20th century. Halachic texts that forbid. Not say "its OK, but not recommended." Thanks.


Note my careful use of the words "forbids or disparages." The Gra uses the word forbidden. The Maharam (and by extension the Kol Bo and the Beis Yosef who cite the Maharam) say that if a woman wants to put on tefillin "we don't listen to her." The Rema uses the term "we protest against her"; the Magen Avraham, Magen Dovid, Mishna Brura and Aruch haShulchan all quote those words as well. Targum Yonasan ben Uziel says that if a woman wears tefillin, she is in violation of the prohibition against wearing men's garments; the Malbim cites the Levush and the Lechem Chamudos as codifying this position l'halacha. The Maharshal notes that the Chachamim's permission for Michal to wear tefillin did not extend to other women.

A baker's dozen plus, and none of them suggests that it is okay.

And again, my point was that it borders on ludicrous to suggest that the traditional practice of women not wearing tefillin was due to various sociological factors as opposed to halachic restrictions.

(Out of curiosity, which was that text that you were thinking of that forbids it?)
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BlueRose52




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 12:59 pm
goodmorning wrote:
This would make sense if not for the plethora of halachic texts that forbid or disparage women's wearing of tefillin.

I would absolutely agree that most texts are not supportive of the practice. But so what? That doesn't tell the whole story. Doesn't every complicated halachic issue have a wide range of views on it, some allowing it, some forbidding it? As has been pointed out already there are plenty of authoritative sources that go both ways on this. Saying something should be forbidden because there are texts which forbid it is not taking into account the full gamut of opinion on the topic and the complex manner in which practices are accepted as valid.

When you look at the matter closer, one can discover that there are sources that are against so many things that are commonly accepted in frum society. Yet, we somehow don't seem to make a fuss about them. Do you know how many authoritative halachic sources would be against the idea of kollel?! But of course, no one today would consider kollel assur.

I'll say it again: why some things are so strongly objected to and not others is fundamentally rooted in sociological factors.
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 1:06 pm
BlueRose52 wrote:
I would absolutely agree that most texts are not supportive of the practice. But so what? That doesn't tell the whole story. Doesn't every complicated halachic issue have a wide range of views on it, some allowing it, some forbidding it? As has been pointed out already there are plenty of authoritative sources that go both ways on this. Saying something should be forbidden because there are texts which forbid it is not taking into account the full gamut of opinion on the topic and the complex manner in which practices are accepted as valid.

When you look at the matter closer, one can discover that there are sources that forbid so many things that are commonly accepted in frum society. Yet, we somehow don't seem to make a fuss about them. Do you know how many authoritative halachic sources would be against the idea of kollel?! But of course, no one today would consider kollel assur.

I'll say it again: why some things are so strongly objected to and not others is fundamentally rooted in sociological factors.


One more time (sadly, debating on imamother does not pay the bills and I must get back to my day job): My point in that line was to point out that historically, women did not wear tefillin due to halachic considerations. To suggest otherwise, when the entire gamut of Ashkenazi poskim rule against it, is ludicrous.

Once we've established that, we're back to the question as to why it is better to move against tradition to do something that is viewed negatively in halacha (women wearing tefillin) than it is to move against tradition to do something viewed positively in halacha (enlarge shiurim).
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 1:18 pm
good morning, if you're going to argue that the reason permitting women to lay tefillin is particularly pernicious because there are halachic sources that appear to forbid it, then what about women learning Torah? While our post-Sarah-Schenirer sensibilities seem to be comfortable with the distinction between Torah shebichtav and Torah she'be'al peh, the fact is that there were many halachic sources (Mishnah, R. Yosef Caro) that traditionally forbade women learning Torah at all.

Yet today women even in RW beis yaakov institutions learn Torah, and even learn plenty of fragments of Torah she'be'al peh, (albeit not inside directly inside the text. As if that makes a difference. The idea of "inside the text" is post-Gutenberg.)

What better evidence do you need of prohibitions changing due to changes in society? Why is laying Tefillin different?
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BlueRose52




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 1:26 pm
goodmorning wrote:
One more time (sadly, debating on imamother does not pay the bills and I must get back to my day job): My point in that line was to point out that historically, women did not wear tefillin due to halachic considerations. To suggest otherwise, when the entire gamut of Ashkenazi poskim rule against it, is ludicrous.

Once we've established that, we're back to the question as to why it is better to move against tradition to do something that is viewed negatively in halacha (women wearing tefillin) than it is to move against tradition to do something viewed positively in halacha (enlarge shiurim).

I concede that this point is valid. But aside from applying that idea to this comparison, the overall idea of "so many are against it" is still voiced as a general reason why it should be forbidden.

(Separate question: Where is it viewed positively in halacha to enlarge shiurim? I don't dispute that it happens, but I wasn't aware that it is something encouraged.)
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 1:27 pm
amother wrote:
Anon because of personal information I'm about to divulge.

I'm actually laughing my head off at this because this has been going on at Ramaz for years. In fact, I was a student there when the first 2 girls started over a decade ago. This is not new.

Another who is bashing SAR- go read the article properly. Both girls identify as Conservative. They go to an Orthodox school and are more committed than the typical Conservative Jew, but they are not themselves Orthodox. This is fairly common in certain schools, where not all the kids are frum. I know the family of one of the girls, both parents are Conservative rabbis. They would rather send to Schechter, but the Schechter schools have been closing left and right.

Personally, I do think women wearing tefillin is problematic, but it is still within the pale, even if pushing the boundaries. But I really hate the whole "questioning her motives" thing. My two Ramaz classmates who did it- well, yeah, one was trying to make a statement/create a stir. She did that in man areas and is still like that today. She fits that stereotype to a T. But guess what, not everyone is like that! The other girl is completely sincere, conscientious in all areas of mitzvot, and doesn't try to make a splash at all. If you met her, you'd never know unless it came up, and you'd never make that "what's her motive" argument again.


I must have been at Ramaz with you (98-02) because I remember this as well. The reality is people are going to do what they want to do. At Ramaz it was sort of a big deal because they were really against letting conservative kids in (belonging to an orthodox shul but not keeping halachah is a different story). One girl did it for the reaction, but for one girl this was how she connected. I would rather see a generation of young jews that are religious and connecting in different ways than a majority of unaffiliated, intermarrying and just a handful of machmir, think the same charedi jews.

I know there are a few members on here who don tefillin as well and its a way for them to connect. I think a bigger issue is made when you tell someone "you can't" then they really want to.

Also, at Ramaz, I stood out too. I was always much more religious than most of my other classmates. In many ways, I was acting in a way that was not the norm, just as the girls who lay tefillin. Lets not forget how fragile young minds are.

At the end of the day I figure who am I to judge?
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doctorima




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 1:27 pm
goodmorning wrote:
Note my careful use of the words "forbids or disparages." The Gra uses the word forbidden. The Maharam (and by extension the Kol Bo and the Beis Yosef who cite the Maharam) say that if a woman wants to put on tefillin "we don't listen to her." The Rema uses the term "we protest against her"; the Magen Avraham, Magen Dovid, Mishna Brura and Aruch haShulchan all quote those words as well. Targum Yonasan ben Uziel says that if a woman wears tefillin, she is in violation of the prohibition against wearing men's garments; the Malbim cites the Levush and the Lechem Chamudos as codifying this position l'halacha. The Maharshal notes that the Chachamim's permission for Michal to wear tefillin did not extend to other women.

A baker's dozen plus, and none of them suggests that it is okay.

And again, my point was that it borders on ludicrous to suggest that the traditional practice of women not wearing tefillin was due to various sociological factors as opposed to halachic restrictions.

(Out of curiosity, which was that text that you were thinking of that forbids it?)


Wow, very impressive list! Kol hakavod to you for your learning and sharing your knowledge and sources with us!
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 1:29 pm
doctorima wrote:
Wow, very impressive list! Kol hakavod to you for your learning and sharing your knowledge and sources with us!


Nor do any say that its halachically forbidden.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 1:35 pm
I am friends with the young woman in question (former Ramaz student) and I protest what you are saying about her.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 1:42 pm
sequoia wrote:
I am friends with the young woman in question (former Ramaz student) and I protest what you are saying about her.


You are right. I am the one who said she did it for the reaction. I take it back. That was how I perceived it. Clearly I jumped to conclusions. I whole heartedly apologize and realize I should be more careful about making snap judgements. If I could change it I would.
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out-of-towner




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 1:49 pm
Barbara wrote:
Nor do any say that its halachically forbidden.


Actually, if you read goodmorning's post, she does say that the Gra says it's forbidden.

So yes, there is an opinion that it is forbidden.

Personally, I feel like if a woman wants to be more spiritually uplifted, she should start trying to put meaning into the Mitzvos that she IS obligated in. There are many of those. And many of those aren't taken seriously.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 1:54 pm
BlueRose52 wrote:
Source for what? I just thought he had some very good observations on the whole issue. What are you asking for a source for specifically?
Just read it. Typical Fink stuff. I notice he promotes his FB and Twitter on the bottom, which is also typical. Thanks, I'm pro-women using tefillin if they want but I'm more interested in what others are saying.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 1:56 pm
amother wrote:
The girls didn't publicize their names. In fact, my son attends SAR High School, and HE was unable to tell me who the two girls were who were laying tefillin (and, in fact, we guessed who it might be -- wrongly, as it turns out). The students were told about it, as they felt that the student population was entitled to know. Period. They do not daven, and are not allowed to lay tefillin, in the general mixed gender minyan, by the way.

These girls don't want to be men. They want to be highly educated women. And they want to connect to Hashem in a way that is meaningful to them. If you think that means that they want to be men, then I feel very sorry for you. Cooking and having kids is not the only way to be a woman, or the only -- or even the best -- way for a woman to connect to Hashem.

I'm anonymous to protect my son's privacy, but have no doubts most people here know who I am.


I'm the amother you are responding to. You've made a lot of points here that make very little sense. Firstly, if these women were highly educated, they would know the sources that someone (sorry! don't remember who) cited above, saying that it's at best not recommended/frowned upon for women to wear tefillin. Secondly, connect to Hashem in a way that is meaningful to THEM, but which is inappropriate (I won't say forbidden) according to Torah sources? Sorry, but Hashem gave us a Torah in which He told us how to live, and if we decide we know better than Him about what's "meaningful," then that's not Orthodox Judaism anymore. Thirdly, when did I EVER say that "cooking and having kids" is "the only way to be a woman"? You will never hear me say that, because I don't believe it to be true. I don't have kids, I may very possibly never have kids due to medical reasons, my husband is a better cook than I am (lol), and yet I consider myself to be ever-improving in my relationship with Hashem, thanks to working on and improving my tznius, shmiras haloshon, kavana in davening, limud Torah, hilchos Shabbos, bitachon, emunas chachamim, and I don't even know what else off the top of my head. Nice try.

Again, I'm anon because I'm responding to someone who responded to my above anon post.
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EmesOrNT




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 1:58 pm
out-of-towner wrote:
Actually, if you read goodmorning's post, she does say that the Gra says it's forbidden.

So yes, there is an opinion that it is forbidden.

Personally, I feel like if a woman wants to be more spiritually uplifted, she should start trying to put meaning into the Mitzvos that she IS obligated in. There are many of those. And many of those aren't taken seriously.


Agreed.
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BlueRose52




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 1:58 pm
out-of-towner wrote:
Personally, I feel like if a woman wants to be more spiritually uplifted, she should start trying to put meaning into the Mitzvos that she IS obligated in. There are many of those. And many of those aren't taken seriously.

This is another commonly heard objection, yet I've never heard anyone object to the growing trend of women saying tehillim, for which there is absolutely no obligation at all. Wouldn't it be consistent to say that if women want to be more spiritually uplifted, instead of gathering to say tehillim, she should start trying to put meaning into the Mitzvos that she IS obligated in?
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out-of-towner




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 1:59 pm
amother wrote:
I'm the amother you are responding to. You've made a lot of points here that make very little sense. Firstly, if these women were highly educated, they would know the sources that someone (sorry! don't remember who) cited above, saying that it's at best not recommended/frowned upon for women to wear tefillin. Secondly, connect to Hashem in a way that is meaningful to THEM, but which is inappropriate (I won't say forbidden) according to Torah sources? Sorry, but Hashem gave us a Torah in which He told us how to live, and if we decide we know better than Him about what's "meaningful," then that's not Orthodox Judaism anymore. Thirdly, when did I EVER say that "cooking and having kids" is "the only way to be a woman"? You will never hear me say that, because I don't believe it to be true. I don't have kids, I may very possibly never have kids due to medical reasons, my husband is a better cook than I am (lol), and yet I consider myself to be ever-improving in my relationship with Hashem, thanks to working on and improving my tznius, shmiras haloshon, kavana in davening, limud Torah, hilchos Shabbos, bitachon, emunas chachamim, and I don't even know what else off the top of my head. Nice try.

Again, I'm anon because I'm responding to someone who responded to my above anon post.


Well said!!!
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EmesOrNT




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 2:00 pm
BlueRose52 wrote:
This is another commonly heard objection, yet I've never heard anyone object to the growing trend of women saying tehillim, for which there is absolutely no obligation at all. Wouldn't it be consistent to say that if women want to be more spiritually uplifted, instead of gathering to say tehillim, she should start trying to put meaning into the Mitzvos that she IS obligated in?


The difference is that tefillin is specifically for men, and tehillim is neutral. There are many mitzvos that are specifically for women.
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out-of-towner




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 2:03 pm
BlueRose52 wrote:
This is another commonly heard objection, yet I've never heard anyone object to the growing trend of women saying tehillim, for which there is absolutely no obligation at all. Wouldn't it be consistent to say that if women want to be more spiritually uplifted, instead of gathering to say tehillim, she should start trying to put meaning into the Mitzvos that she IS obligated in?


Actually, I would say yes. If I want to say Tehillim, I am welcome to do so. But if I want to say Tehillim when I have an obligation to light the Shabbos Candles, or when I have an obligation to go to the Mikva, I should put off my Tehillim for later.

Besides, no Rabbi has said that there is something wrong with a woman saying Tehillim. OTOH, many Rabbis have issues with women putting on Tefillin.
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BlueRose52




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2014, 2:03 pm
amother wrote:
Sorry, but Hashem gave us a Torah in which He told us how to live, and if we decide we know better than Him about what's "meaningful," then that's not Orthodox Judaism anymore.

Way to go and distort everything about this whole issue.

No one is saying they know anything better than God. They are saying that there are a variety of acceptable interpretations for how to live according to God's dictates.
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