Help me help dd-is it bullying?

amother

Thu, Feb 20 2014, 9:55 pm

I just want to applaud your efforts.

I was teased for years and life was horrible for me when I was younger. I just became the person to tease, whether there was a reason for it or not. I contemplated suicide for years because it was so terrible.

But I didn't tell my parents. I lived with the hell. I think I mentioned it once to my mother and she asked me whether I wanted to change schools. I thought about it briefly but didn't want to make my parents have to pay for private (I was in public). I wish I had. I would like to think that my life would've been better when I was younger.

Please. Even if she's "only" crying a few days a year, it's probably much worse than she's saying.

vintagebknyc

Thu, Feb 20 2014, 10:02 pm

amother wrote:

Another question I have is-what is to be considered 'immature, little girl, catty behavior' vs. over stepping it, over-doing it, bullying. To a certain extent, girls can be mean. Is this just mean or is it over the top? Either way we have issues we must work through with DD but the question is, is it really bullying or is it her not knowing how to handle or being over-sensitive? (Does anyone else have kids who've been through anything similar?)

you ask, again and again, "is it really bullying?" you asked me not to be hurtful, but you're not listening to anyone here, even the women here who are telling you exactly what I'm doing with for more grace than I've chosen to.

please reread what you're writing. I just don't think you're understanding what is happening to your child, or don't want to. and my heart is breaking for your sad DD.

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Feb 20 2014, 10:05 pm

amother wrote:

OP here. Thank you all for your replies thus far.

Vintage, I know there's a problem and I'm trying to figure out how to address it. I know she's in pain and I am too. I would appreciate more constructive comments, not hurtful ones, thank you.

I have to get some numbers of therapists. I had considered switching classes but was told by some staff that it's not necessary and that she's with a good group of girls. Rolling Eyes

There's clearly an issue though. Another question I have is-what is to be considered 'immature, little girl, catty behavior' vs. over stepping it, over-doing it, bullying. To a certain extent, girls can be mean. Is this just mean or is it over the top? Either way we have issues we must work through with DD but the question is, is it really bullying or is it her not knowing how to handle or being over-sensitive? (Does anyone else have kids who've been through anything similar?)

OP, you see what's coming home. You see your daughter.

Why did you let others tell you what to think? That is very passive of you. The staff don't see, and don't need any bother. It's just easier for them for you to go home and be quiet. You listened to them because it's easier that way for you, too.

As to your second point, whether your daughter is taking normal kid stuff too sensitively. To see it that way that is nonsensical thinking.

If I cut you with a silly little disposable plastic picnic knife, you still bleed. Even though your skin really should have been thicker. And it's not anything remotely resembling a real weapon.

You are engaging in abstraction-addiction, here. You are addicted to abstractions such as "does this behavior conform to abstract definitions of bullying?"

Who cares?

It's impacting your daughter as bullying, and has been for two years.

Now you want shrinks to toughen your daughter up.

The time for social skills help was two years ago.

SPITTING?

Were you bullied, OP?

November

Thu, Feb 20 2014, 10:35 pm

I have an uber-sensitive child who has come home complaining about the behavior of the kids in her class ever since I can remember. I have found it to be really hard to figure out what is truly going on for her because her expectations of others are very high. She is also slighted very easily. This has made being in elementary school very challenging for her. What I can tell you is that where we lived there was only one Jewish school options, and I offered her to be home-schooled throughout elementary school and she always said NO. To me that meant that there was enough good happening at school for her to want to stay connected. Often she liked the teachers more than the other students. She's very much involved in the decision of where to go for high school, and we're hoping that that will make for a happier child. So yes, we have been there. It's painful and she does need to feel your support. Good luck, OP.

amother

Thu, Feb 20 2014, 10:45 pm

November wrote:

Thank you so much for sharing this. I'm trying to figure out if this is part of the equation and other posters were just not seeing this possibility. (yes, some behaviors were unacceptable but is some of it sensitivity?) In any case it makes things difficult. I'm sorry that you and your daughter had to go through that and I hope that she has a great experience in H.S.

amother

Thu, Feb 20 2014, 10:49 pm

EmesOrNT wrote:

No, this is not normal catty behavior. She is not being overly sensitive. She is being bullied.

Just curious though, would you be OK with it if it were just cattiness? At that age? Cuz I wouldn't.

Be your child's advocate. If you won't help her, no one will.

Right, so spitting and pushing is out of line, out of the question. The question was more about mean comments or not being allowed to play...and what frequency would push it to the 'bullying' rather than 'catty' side. In any case, the situation does need to be dealt with. If she's miserable it needs to be dealt with. How to deal is the question (and what precisely we're dealing with).

EmesOrNT

Thu, Feb 20 2014, 10:51 pm

amother wrote:

Im just going to say this one more time. (Hopefully.)

SHE IS BEING BULLIED.

Of course sensitivity plays into the equation. Thats what makes her such an easy target. I was (still am) a very sensitive child. Does that make it my fault? Does it give the other kids the right to exclude me, pick on me? Does being sensitive make the spiting ok?

Stop trying to rationalize it. Your daughter is crying that she's being picked on. Not once, not occasionally, but often. If you don't listen to her now, she'll stop telling you anything.

EmesOrNT

Thu, Feb 20 2014, 10:53 pm

amother wrote:

Like I said in a previous post, I was never physically bullied. No one pushed me, or spit at me. They were mean to me, excluded me, said nasty things about me when I could hear them and when I couldn't. All of that escalated until they wrote about me on a bathroom wall. Yep, catty behavior.

abound

Fri, Feb 21 2014, 2:17 am

Statistically, if a child is being bullied in one place chances for her being bullied if she changes classes or schools is very high. First send her for social therapy. there are good therapists, and not such good therapists. Make sure the one you send her to is good.
If she was being bullied terribly then I would keep her home till the therapy takes off or even change schools, if it is something she can still deal with while she goes to therapy then she can continue school.

ETA: This is in no way blaming the victim, it is just that once a kid is being bullied, it is like an abuse mentality, they learn to accept certain behavior which other kids would stand up to or show certain tendencies that will make other bullies pick on them.

Last edited by abound on Sat, Feb 22 2014, 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Fri, Feb 21 2014, 11:17 am

My experience with my daughter was soo similar in terms of the nobody wants to play with me, I have no friends, ppl are being mean. I don't know how to respond to the physical aggression as that is worrisome to me, but she saw a wonderful therapist for a few weeks and we got some good advice. For us, this is what helped:

When my daughter would tell me the mean comments that ppl made, I would say You know, sometimes kids say silly things and sometimes your hair will stick up and your still beautiful (or whatever it was). that's certainly not a nice thing to say and I wouldn't do that and I would hope you wouldn't do that. But hey, people sometimes talk like that, what r u gonna do? You just have to like what you like and wear what you want to wear, and not everyone likes the same thing. Its a little rude to say so, but as long as you like it, that's OK. Different ppl like different things. They probably like stuff that you don't like.

the point is that it should sting for a second, but then she should develop the ability to move on.
Bullying would be if other kids are called over to laugh or the deliberately cruel actions like the spitting you mentioned. That's not Okay. I'm not sure in what context the pushing was. Pushing usually happens a lot in school or group settings and its often benign, so you would need to find out. but spitting is of concern to me.

Then give a lot of unconditional love. If it fits, can say something like I love the pictures you draw or whatever it is,and then say, not every one will think so but that's OK. Diff ppl like diff things.

But I needed to learn (as I am super sensitive also!) that sometimes ppl say stupid things and they can sting and then we don't dwell on them or consider them to be an absolute reflection of the person who said them. Be bracing when you respond to her, don't show her any intense emotional distress. Show her that you believe she will learn to weather the storm.

I also tried to do what I call "offset." I have no idea if this is "an approved parenting technique" but it makes me feel better too. Like, I try to do extra nice things when things are lousy or put more effort into a family sunday activity when I know its been a hard week.

When ppl tell you, OMG its bullying and start freaking out. It may be true or it may not be true. But changing schools won't help. These kinds of things happen everywhere. You ARE a good mom. Don't let ppl jumping on you make you feel bad. these things are not something that you call a teacher and then the teacher is like oh okay, I'll wave my magic wand and make it all disappear. it takes a while for change.

When my daughter was going through this, the teacher was pathetic so no help from there. But it took a while to figure that out. and then to move on to the social worker.. and in my sons school??? they don't give a Sh*t. yes, sorry, they make me so mad I could curse. its really hard, and its unfortunately really common. Don't give up, hopefully you'll get through this! My daughter is really happy now in school and has nice friends. whats beautiful to see is that when there is an incident, she and her friends stick up for each other. I WISH my son would have the same....

Ruchel

Fri, Feb 21 2014, 11:17 am

I have never heard of social therapy and do not think being bullied makes her in need of therapy unless you notice issues.

As a teacher, I WISH teachers were more reactive and not "she needs to learn life, to handle it, to be integrated, to make efforts".
I've heard from seasoned teachers that most kids will one day be bullied, and one day bully. When it gets physical it's definitely untolerable (not that it should be tolerated before, but go tell the teachers...) and if you can change school it's great. Some classes have such bad dynamics. Sometimes one pupil goes and the class becomes ok again...

Unless one uglifies oneself (which I don't learn is required, and can even be problematic as we say the talmid chacham should never go out with a stained outfit) one can only try one's best.

ElTam

Fri, Feb 21 2014, 4:44 pm

As a parent of a bullied child I will tell you two things I learned.

1. It is wrong to blame the child who is being bullied. Even if a child is socially awkward, the behavior you describe is unacceptable, especially in a frum school that is supposed to be focusing on middos. Yes, it may be possible to work with the child to develop social skills, but if she is having successful playdates with the same kids (where you are supervising and watching what is going on, so the bullies don't have time to pull their schtick), then I doubt the problem is with her.

2. If you have a choice between listening to your child and listening to a teacher, listen to your child. When my child was going through this, I told the school, "It is happening at recess and at lunch." And I was told, "The teachers don't see a problem. The teachers don't see a problem. The teachers don't see a problem." Over and over the same thing. One day I was at school, standing where I could see the playground. And the teachers who were "supervising" the kids were standing in a circle talking. Watching none of the kids. So no wonder they didn't see anything. One on occasion, My daughter got a note from a classmate saying a horrible thing. I was told she was making it up. Until I went to school, walked into the classroom, and found the note ripped in half in the recycling bin. The teachers not knowing doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

My child started being bullied in kindergarten and it continued until we changed her school after second grade. We had her in social skills training, worked on "bully-proofing" her at school, had meetings with teachers, the works. We were told again and again that our child was too sensitive, that she "invited" the bullying. Remarkably, same child changed schools and has never been bullied even once in her new school, a year and half later. And when I think about what she went through in those years, even though we were actively working with her, the teachers, the guidance counselor, the administration, I feel so horrible that I failed her so profoundly.

And you know what? Those kids who bullied her are for the most part nice kids. And not everyone in her class was bullied. But the fact that they are "a nice group of girls" means nothing to the child they aren't nice to.

I would advise you to get very aggressive with the school about solving this problem, and if they can't by the end of the year, move your daughter to a new school.