is this appropriate and I'm just overreacting?

amother

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 10:39 am

For the record, thanks for the education ladies! I don't recall it ever being mentioned that she was asked to appear naked. I was always wondering how the tail came through her clothing, I thought perhaps it was too large to be hidden under her dress, hence her humiliation LOL! embarrassed

momtra

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 11:38 am

I don't remember when I learned it, but I give you south credit for your reaction. There's a reason we are discreet ( and hopefully not misleading) when we talk about certain parts of the Torah. Why is Vashtis nakedness ok to talk about in a 5th grade classroom ?!!
On another note, IMO there is way too much drash that kids think are peshat!

m in Israel

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 11:50 am

momtra wrote:

I don't know if you've ever heard men learning gemarah, but I don't know where you get the concept that we are "discreet" when we talk about certain parts of the Torah. Yes, we try to use "lashon naki" when talking about things, but I've never heard any reliable source saying one should avoid or hide parts of the Torah, and the boys/ men certainly learn a lot more intense topics then that Achashvairosh sought to embarrass Vashti by requiring her to appear undressed, and that this was middah kneged middah for her forcing her Jewish slaves to undergo similar embarrassment. And although I am also a big fan of focusing on peshat, a basic Rashi bringing down a pretty straight forward gemarah is not very "drash"y in my mind. Even pshat is only understood correctly through the eyes of the meforshim. Again, this is not some obscure medrash somewhere, or some abstract concept brought down in a Chassidishe sefer.

Previous amother -- Did you ever learn megillas Esther in high school or seminary? I'm surprised that you never learned through the basic Pesukim and Rashis at any point. We used to have a few days every year before Purim devoted to learning the Megillah in high school, and we learned it in seminary as well.

imasoftov

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 12:22 pm

Another explanation for Vashti's refusal without a tail or tzaraat is found in Esther Rabba 3

אמרה לו
אם רואין אותי נאה הם נותנין עיניהם להשתמש בי והורגים אותך
ואם רואין אותי כעורה את מתגנת בי

She said to him if they see me as beautiful they will stare at me and will kill you, if they see me as ugly, you will be disgraced through me

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpage.....um=29

Last edited by imasoftov on Thu, Mar 13 2014, 8:09 am; edited 1 time in total

momtra

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 12:35 pm

[quote="m in Israel"]I don't know if you've ever heard men learning gemarah, but I don't know where you get the concept that we are "discreet" when we talk about certain parts of the Torah. Yes, we try to use "lashon naki" when talking about things, but I've never heard any reliable source saying one should avoid or hide parts of the Torah, and the boys/ men certainly learn a lot more intense topics then that Achashvairosh sought to embarrass Vashti by requiring her to appear undressed, and that this was middah kneged middah for her forcing her Jewish slaves to undergo similar embarrassment. And although I am also a big fan of focusing on peshat, a basic Rashi bringing down a pretty straight forward gemarah is not very "drash"y in my mind. Even pshat is only understood correctly through the eyes of the meforshim. Again, this is not some obscure medrash somewhere, or some abstract concept brought down in a

Yes, I agree with you but men learning gemarah is not the same as listening to a story in 5th grade? Are they learning it inside so they know what is peshat and what is Rashi ? I agree you need mefarsh to understand peshat but its not ok to make them interchangeable . There needs to be a distinction. When kids don't blink an eye when a donkey talks in Parshas Balak - in the peshat. Perhaps ( just a thought) we are overexposing them to Midrash at such an early age

m in Israel

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 12:46 pm

momtra wrote:

Yes, I agree with you but men learning gemarah is not the same as listening to a story in 5th grade? Are they learning it inside so they know what is peshat and what is Rashi ? I agree you need mefarsh to understand peshat but its not ok to make them interchangeable . There needs to be a distinction. When kids don't blink an eye when a donkey talks in Parshas Balak - in the peshat. Perhaps ( just a thought) we are overexposing them to Midrash at such an early age

My point is that Rashi IS considered pshat in most of the Orthodox world. Pshat never means a literal interpretation of the words without reference to any commentators -- it means the most simple explanation according to the rules of understanding the Torah through our mesorah which includes Torah Sheb'aal Peh. We don't believe in Torah Shebechtav alone. So something brought down in Rashi as his understanding of the meaning of the words IS Pshat.

Now you may feel even the Pshat of the story is not appropriate in certain circumstances, and that is ok. I certainly understand why preschool teachers teach the "beauty pageant" version of Achashveirosh's search for a new Queen rather then the "kidnap all the maidens and imprison them in the king's harem" storyline. But I am not trying to address what to teach kids, but rather what your definition of pshat vs. drash is. Because I don't understand why you refer to this (Vashti being asked to appear undressed) as an example of "overexposure to Midrash" or "drash that kids think is phsat".

Chayalle

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 1:27 pm

momtra wrote:

Um.....boys learn gemarah, not just men. And learning megillah is not just listening to a story. It is learning one of the Sifrei Nach. IMVHO learning the truth of Torah, using clean language of course, is not overexposure. And as m in israel has said, this is pshat, not a midrash.

tigerwife

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 1:31 pm

We relearnt Sefer Bereishis in upper HS. The beginning is really complicated; elementary school usually sticks with what was created on each day, light story of Adam and Chava, Noach and the mabul... By the end of HS, most girls should be mature enough to learn about the in betweens.

There was another thread where some posters were indignant that they never learned that the 400 maidens were raped... Goodness, imagine teaching that to a classful of 10-year-olds! Learning does not have to end after school. Don't be mad that your school didn't teach you something if it is not impossible to learn it on your own. There are many comprehensive books in English on Megilas Esther.

shlomitsmum

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 8:54 pm

ectomorph wrote:

I learned that in 5th grade too...it's completely standard.

It had no s*xual connotation to me back then.

Just wait until your son is learning Kesubos... Gemara is far more explicit.

How do you teach your kids Tanach if you skip every such thing? It''s a part of life.

oh yeah

! Kesubos is explicit and my jaw dropped to the floor when I heard my 14 year old as he was repeating and translating for a test embarrassed

I was like shock

...hmm what is THAT?!
My son nonchalantly explained to me that they learn this now so they get the kadosh perspective but I was completely floored embarrassed

. so yeah .... Vashti in birthday suit it pretty G rated in comparison OP LOL

dr. pepper

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 9:20 pm

amother wrote:

My father was a Rebbe for many years and as far as he is concerned if it is in the Torah you teach it. If my father was teaching sefer breshis then Yehuda and Tamar was taught. Mishna Yuma the 5 Issurim of Yom Kippur are taught etc.

I did learn Yehuda and Tamar when I was in 4th grade the story line went over my head. I had no idea.

When we learned Shmuel II in 7th grade that made for some interesting learning.

LOL to your last line! I guess we had similar curriculum because boy to I remember that. Except ours was with Amnon and Tamar.

Regarding your first comment, my mother always felt the same way.
Her attitude always was: if the Torah talks about it, it's fine. There's nothing to be embarrassed or ashamed of.

Now how to go about teaching it is another story: as in, the nakedness as a beauty vs. embarrassment factor.

I'm not sure how'd I'd feel. I guess a lot would have to be on the way the Rebbe is in general (ie. a good, solid, chashuv and loved Rebbi) and how it was taught (ie. matter of fact, this is what the midrash says)

Now I'm curious and I'll have to ask my DH when he remembers learning it. I think I was in high school or at least upper elementary.