Delivered Mishloach Manot - Who Does It Belong To?

amother

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 10:03 pm

Crazy question, I know, and there's an even crazier and sadder story to go with it. But I'm only asking out of sheer curiosity, because l'ma'aseh I considered the mishloach manot to be treif and threw it out anyway. And this person considers himself an "expert" in halacha.

BUT. If someone sends you mishloach manot (that happened to arrive a day late by mail) and tell you that they want it to be ONLY for you, is it g'neiva if someone else (I.e. DH in this case) eats from it? Meaning this person told me via note that he would consider it g'neiva from him, not from me, if DH would have eaten from it.

If the mishloach manot is in my possession, and was given to me, isn't it now mine to dispense as I so please? Otherwise all the imamothers on this site who throw out their kid's nosh would be oiver on halacha.

momX4

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 10:15 pm

as far as I know a child under bar/bat mitzva cant halachikly own anything. Everything belongs to their parents. If I throw out their candy without their permission, I am allowed to do that (I actually buy it off them).

I am unsure of the halacha between a husband and wife. I am unsure of how much control the giver has once the package is in your possessions.

yonah

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 10:28 pm

justforfun87 wrote:

This seems very off, why are you not considering sharing junk food with your husband. Why is someone sending you something prefacing the fact that they don't want your husband eating from it.

Because this is a very very unstable and toxic person I received it from and don't consider his kashrut valid. Even the store bought things that were in there I tossed because I don't trust them. Had the mishloach manot come from any other source, I would have gladly and whole heartedly shared it with DH. But not from this person, even without the strings.

Honestly, I have the heebie-jeebies just knowing this person knows where I live.

EDIT: didn't mean to post under my screen name! oh well

goodmorning

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 11:11 pm

It is possible for someone to give a gift to a woman "al m'nas she'ein liba'alah rishus bo" (on the condition that her husband does not have automatic rights to it [its peiros]). If someone gives such a present to a woman and the husband takes it, he is stealing from the woman. If she willingly gives it to her husband or shares it with him, there is no stealing taking place. In general, the giver cannot legislate the actions of the recipient.

OTOH, this applies only once the wife acquired it. You said that the MM was sent through the mail -- according to many opinions, the sender retains possession of a mailed item until the recipient is koneh it. In this case, if your husband were to intercept the mailed MM before you picked it up, and he ate it, it was still in the sender's possession (since he never had in mind to give it to your husband) and your husband would have stolen from the sender by eating the MM against his wishes.

Or even simpler -- if the giver is makneh it to the wife on the condition that she does not share it with her husband (if that's possible to do, it's not so obvious that it is) and she shares it with her husband, the kinyan is voided and they are stealing from the giver.

(There must be some other variables at play here too but I'm too tired to think straight. But it seems like it's possible to construct such a situation.)

someoneoutthere

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 11:11 pm

A) Al pi din, yes a person can make such a t'nai with their gifting. But there is a discussion over when that t'nai (condition) is made vis a vis the gifting and there are clear rules of how a t'nai is actually made, which it seems he didnt fulfill here. But then they probably wouldn't be yotzei mishloach manos and definitely not in spirit.

B) Someone can give a gift to a wife that excludes her husband (ie. it is hers and hers alone) if the specify that it is only for her use. Stam cash, for example, becomes her husband's possession in the way that all of her general possessions are his. But if you are given cash and told go spend this on a dress, or whatever other specifics, for yourself then it belongs to her and her alone.

someoneoutthere

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 11:17 pm

goodmorning wrote:

This can only be if it was specific in the personal use of the woman, not a general "your husband doesnt have reshus" since that is not something anyone else can demand of a woman due to the halachic status of a married woman's possessions and her her husband.

As for the t'nai thing, it's a machlokes rishonim if you need to have all the hilchos t'naim (said in a positive and negative format; positive must be before the negative; said before the giving; something possible to fulfill) in matters of business and the like. It gets complicated......

goodmorning

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 11:19 pm

someoneoutthere wrote:

Isn't eating the MM a specific personal use of the woman?

And hence the "if that's possible to do" part. Smile

yonah

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 11:25 pm

Goodmorning, I think I understand what you're saying. Basically because I was koneh the package, it would not have been stealing had I chosen to share its contents with DH, but had DH simply opened the package (which he never would have done) and eaten from it, the it would have been.

Seems like the "halacha expert" was missing a few facts. Or chose to ignore them.

Either way he definitely wasn't yotzei mishloach manot al pi halacha, nor in the spirit of it either. He only sent it to make a point in the first place and unnecessarily escalated our situation with that note.

Someoneoutthere, so the t'nai has to be given in person? Or at least said verbally to the recipient? And in the dress example, would it then be stealing if you decided your DH (or child or whomever) needed a new pair of shoes more than you needed a dress? What if you decided to give it to tzedaka instead?

Also to clarify - the lashon was only sent via note, no verbal communication beforehand, and was something like, "and btw, I intend the mishloach manot to be only for you and it would be stealing from me if your DH ate from it".

Don't have the paper on me or I would post it word for word.

goodmorning

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 11:39 pm

yonah wrote:

Basically, it could have been arranged but would be difficult.
If he didn't say that you can't throw it out, you're safe. Smile

yonah

Tue, Mar 18 2014, 11:48 am

Goodmorning, lol, he didn't specify but I would have thrown out regardless and taken the aveirah. Smile

Greenfire, you've got his number and that's exactly the community he's a part of. But he's my uncle so he probably doesn't care about that hashkafa. The whole situation is definitely insane, though. Especially as he claims to want a relationship... and then proceeds to insult me and DH. And insulted my high school and DH's yeshiva in Israel, which boasts some awesome and well known Rabbanim. As to the aversion to my husband - only in the sense that we (me, DH, my family, his family) are staunch Modern O, and he is staunch yeshivish and feels that his derech is the only derech... regardless of the fact that all involved are shomrei Torah u'mitzvot. And that we should be looking to him as some sort of halacha God....

Either way, my curiosity is satisfied. Smile