Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
BY girl/Yeshiva boy in Ivy League
  Previous  1  2  3  4  5  6



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 18 2014, 3:35 pm
amother wrote:
My daughter wants to apply to an Ivy League university. Is it possible to get in from by? Does it pay? Is it possible to stay very frum? WhT about the dorm?


Getting In
I'm sure it's possible to get in if your grades, test scores, and personal profile support it. Remember, selective colleges are getting gazillions of applications from kids who went to good public or private schools; were active in tons of activities and organizations; and did well in school and on SATs.

We sell our BY and Yeshiva grads entirely too short, IMHO. I can guarantee you that very, very few of those fancy-shmancy public or private schools actually require you to be functionally bi- or tri-lingual at any level in order to enter -- let alone graduate. Very, very few of those schools require high school students to be able to learn from original texts. Very, very few of those schools require the long school days to which our students are accustomed.

So while we can argue endlessly among ourselves about what chinuch should ideally look like, comparing a BY/Yeshiva grad with a grad from, say, an elite public school district is like comparing apples and oranges. Their grades/test scores may vary, but the difference doesn't say quite as much about college success as you might think.

Admission officers are quite well aware of that and would probably be eager to admit more frum Jewish students if given the chance. The biggest hurdle to admission is not adequately educating admissions teams about how demanding a Jewish education really is -- even if it results in somewhat lower test scores or grades.

Living On Campus
This, also IMHO, is the biggest hurdle. The goal of most selective colleges is to create a campus "community." They want their students to be exposed to a large range of viewpoints and ideas, and they believe that living with others in semi-communal arrangements facilitates this.

In some cases, they actually require students to live on campus for at least part of their time in college, and many make it very difficult to avoid living on campus. If I remember correctly, a frum student had to mount a high-profile campaign against Yale to avoid some of their requirements that were inconsistent with his religious values.

Even if the university is amenable by offering a kosher cafeteria and/or a single-gender dorm, I have grave doubts about whether the atmosphere is a good thing for anyone -- let alone a young frum woman. Alcohol abuse and s-xual assault have, unfortunately, become commonplace on campuses today, and even the most focused and serious 19-year-old can easily find herself in a situation beyond her coping skills.

The Payoff

Thirty years ago, I would have said, "Absolutely!" Today, I'm not so sure. Since this thread was started in 2011, college costs have gone up approximately 7.45 percent per year, depending on the individual college. At no time during that period has the general inflation rate gone over 3 percent and has generally hovered at just under 2 percent.

Selective private colleges are the most expensive, and it's almost unheard of to graduate without racking up at least $200,000 in bills. If you can get Uncle Sam to pay part of that, then great. If you're independently wealthy or have a rich relative who wants to pay, even better. But if you're planning to take on extensive debt, you may want to rethink the value of the degree.

There are plenty of online sources for you to research which degrees and majors have the biggest payoffs. I'd recommend doing some serious economic evaluation of whether Ivy League or similar colleges offer enough bang for the buck at this point in time.

The Alternatives
If your DD wants the name on the diploma or wants the experience of rubbing elbows with "designer brand" scholars, there are some alternatives that are worth investigating that won't mire her (or you!) in debt forever and won't compromise her religious values as much.

Evening Division

As if they weren't raking it in from regular "day" students, a large number of selective colleges have opened "evening divisions" designed for adult students who wish to complete their degrees. My own alma mater (not Ivy, but similarly selective) has such a program, and my son took a number of classes through it.

The courses were taught by some of the same professors; the cost was a fraction of the full-time program; and the entire "campus atmosphere" issue was avoided. I calculated that the same degree taken as part of the evening division would cost $50,000 (less if you transferred courses from a lower-cost local college) -- compared to the $200,000 needed for tuition, room, and board for day students.

Oh, and the transcript looks identical to the one issued to the full-time students!

Friends in High Places
One of the major selling points for the Ivies and similarly selective schools is that you meet and interact not only with the top scholars in the country, but you spend your formative years hanging out with tomorrow's movers and shakers. In other words, that weird girl you have to share a room with may turn out to be a Supreme Court Justice down the road.

There is a certain entertainment value, as you get older, to see how your classmates end up. It makes for amusing stories about celebrities, politicians, and the like. It's also cool to find yourself in graduate school or in your professional life, discussing a major theorist in your field, and think to yourself, "Oh, yeah! I remember taking a class with him. Ear hair and terrible breath!" But is it worth the cost, religiously or economically?

As the Internet has flattened the world, I have to vote, "No." There are just too many other, cheaper, safer ways to meet the leaders in your field. You can email them; subscribe to their online newsletters; heck, you can probably get a gig acting as a moderator on their forums. In the technology field, for example, relationships are created by participation in online forums. Participate regularly, appropriately, and effectively, and you will catch the attention of far more useful "friends" than you would have made in college.

And these are ideas aside from the concept of "internships," which seem entirely too close to slavery for my taste. There are tons of opportunities to meet interesting people in your field if you're still young enough to exchange free labor for the opportunity.

So, yes, your DD can probably get in -- but I'm not sure it's worth the effort. If she's serious and/or ambitious, there are a lot of opportunities out there that don't cost as much or carry as much risk religiously.

Hatzlacha!
Back to top

Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 18 2014, 4:10 pm
amother wrote:
My daughter wants to apply to an Ivy League university. Is it possible to get in from by? Does it pay? Is it possible to stay very frum? WhT about the dorm?


I'm sure its possible.

She will need to have something above a 3.9 or so GPA, and well above a 2100 on her SATs, in addition to excellent teacher recommendations and extracurriculars. DS has a friend who has a 4.0 or better GPA (don't forget the extra weighting for AP courses) from one of the top high schools in the country, gets extra brownie points from colleges for being differently abled, and about a 2100 on his SATs, and his college guidance counselor tells him that he needs to do better on the SAT if he wants to go to Harvard. The scatter sheet available online shows that people with 2400s were rejected with a GPA of 3.5.

HOWEVER, they might consider her to be a diversity students, which means that her scores could be lower.

Ivy dorms are no different than other dorms. They house college kids. Its certainly not going to be a "very frum" atmosphere. But there are kosher food halls at most places, and she would request a shomer shabbat roomie so she could use timers. Some schools might even be within an eruv.

Is it worth it? I know that my nephew's Ivy degree (2012) is opening doors for him that most people find shut. But who knows, maybe that's because he's so brilliant to begin with.
Back to top

simhat_nisuyyin




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 18 2014, 4:23 pm
I graduated from an Ivy League university a few years ago. I went to a prestigious public high school and had a high GPA. My SAT score was 2300. There were definitely a large number of classmates with perfect GPA's and SAT scores. I think what got me in was a unique talent (got into a special program that required additional screening) and a strong personal essay that stood out. My quantitative achievements were definitely not enough.

I think it's highly unusual for someone to get in from a strictly BY education, but certainly not impossible, especially if her numbers are right and the other pieces are strong. To be honest, there is an element of luck in the whole process as well. I'd recommend putting together a list of several universities that includes "reaches", "targets", and "safeties". I'd also recommend remembering that a prestigious name doesn't guarantee a positive experience or a superior education. If your daughter is academically gifted and wants to go to university, she should! There are literally thousands of options, and she will find the right one for her. That being said, she should definitely apply for her dream schools!

About being frum on campus: by definition, campus residential life is not a "frum" environment. It's entirely possible to maintain a frum lifestyle on campus with enough commitment and support. I know I did, though it was sometimes a challenge and required me to speak up for myself and be flexible as well (not with my own praxis, just with the environment around me, if that makes sense.)

Best of luck!
Back to top

abby1776




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 18 2014, 4:25 pm
If your daughter has specific career plans (dr, lawyer, etc.) skip the ivy. Go somewhere less expensive and do really well and get into an Ivy League graduate school. If your dd wants to go into investment banking she should go to an Ivy League school because all the banks recruit there right out of college. If your daughter doesn't know what she wants for get it. Not worth the money.
Back to top

chatouli




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 18 2014, 4:46 pm
abby1776 wrote:
If your daughter has specific career plans (dr, lawyer, etc.) skip the ivy. Go somewhere less expensive and do really well and get into an Ivy League graduate school. If your dd wants to go into investment banking she should go to an Ivy League school because all the banks recruit there right out of college. If your daughter doesn't know what she wants for get it. Not worth the money.


I agree unless it is Harvard or Yale. Even if she has no career plans, I think it would be foolish to turn either school down. Otherwise, definitely best to spend the money on grad school.

Dorming would probably be tough but not impossible. Others have more experience with this than I do.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Tue, Mar 18 2014, 5:46 pm
I went to Cornell from 2001-2005.

Three of Cornell's seven undergraduate schools are "state schools" that offer subsidized tuition for NY State residents. Possibly also preferential admissions for NY residents (don't remember).

Also, as for dorm life, Cornell has the "Center for Jewish Living" which has its own dorm (men and women separately), kosher dining facility and shul in the same building. Check out http://www.cornellcjl.com/history.html

Last I recall, hot kosher food is available in at least two campus locations besides the main kosher dining hall at CJL and cold packaged kosher sandwiches are available at most of the nonkosher dining locations. If you find CJL unsatisfactory, Cornell doesn't require students to live on campus or have meal plans (you may want to double check that this is true for freshmen) and many students live off campus. For upperclassmen, I think a majority lives off campus, so it won't feel strange when your child does so.

Buses run to NYC frequently and it's about a 4 hour ride.

When I was there, the frum community was not very big, especially considering the size of the school and its Jewish population, but it was close-knit.
Back to top

Peanut2




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 18 2014, 6:16 pm
abby1776 wrote:
If your daughter has specific career plans (dr, lawyer, etc.) skip the ivy. Go somewhere less expensive and do really well and get into an Ivy League graduate school. If your dd wants to go into investment banking she should go to an Ivy League school because all the banks recruit there right out of college. If your daughter doesn't know what she wants for get it. Not worth the money.


I agree. There's nothing wrong with with still going to an Ivy, but what really counts is where she goes to grad/professional school. With concrete plans she can go to a highly ranked public university, take advantage of as many opportunities as possible, including as much independent research as she can, whether in political science, history, psychology, or chemistry, as well as any other opportunities, academic and otherwise. The goal then is to get into the best program she can after college.

Also, why focus only on the Ivies? There are other excellent schools AND you should look at a range of schools. People here mentioned MIT, which isn't technically an Ivy but is just as good. Look at a variety of schools, and try to get some qualified advice about how DD stacks up against other applicants.

College admissions are incredibly competitive. What grade is she in? Does her school offer APs? If yes, how many and how many has she taken? If not, or if it only offers a few, has she taken any college classes, either during the school year or summer?
Back to top

sky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 19 2014, 11:46 am
shnitzel wrote:
I know a girl who went to BY and Bnos Chava who ended up in to Columbia but her story didn't turn out so well.


I know a girl with the same sequence. But her family wasn't BY type.

I also know a girl who went to Harvard during her late 20s and she is an amazing person in every way. Its a few years later and unfortunately she isn't married, but it has nothing to do with her schooling.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Wed, Mar 19 2014, 12:42 pm
sky wrote:
I know a girl with the same sequence. But her family wasn't BY type.

I also know a girl who went to Harvard during her late 20s and she is an amazing person in every way. Its a few years later and unfortunately she isn't married, but it has nothing to do with her schooling.
I am OP. Given some facts I know about you, there is a high chance we are talking about the same person, and meeting her is what prompted me to start this thread a few years ago. I was wondering how common it is for people like that to attend Ivy Leagues on their own.
Back to top

nylon




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 12:14 am
Fox wrote:
Getting In

The Payoff[/I]
Selective private colleges are the most expensive, and it's almost unheard of to graduate without racking up at least $200,000 in bills. If you can get Uncle Sam to pay part of that, then great. If you're independently wealthy or have a rich relative who wants to pay, even better. But if you're planning to take on extensive debt, you may want to rethink the value of the degree.


As someone who went to an expensive private college (not Ivy) the reality is rather more complicated. Ivy League colleges offer extensive financial aid. The issue for frum families is that they may have paper wealth but not the cash that the university formula thinks should be available (I.e. they expect, not entirely unreasonably, that if you are paying several sets of private school tuition, you can also afford to pay for college).

Outside this specific situation, it is far from unheard of to graduate from the Ivy League with this kind of debt. (There are colleges, however, with equally high tuition and far less generous aid.)

(ETA: Oops. Far from common. Most people do not borrow that kind of money. By the way, federal Stafford loans are capped at $23K subsidized, $31K total. Anything above that is private loans, requiring a cosigner, or parental PLUS loans. The Ivies have worked to reduce the student loan burden for their students. Again, this is not true for all colleges and I can think of several where students do regularly take out substantial private loans. If you are good enough to get into an Ivy, though, money is not necessarily what should put you off.)
Back to top

sky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 10:45 am
amother wrote:
I am OP. Given some facts I know about you, there is a high chance we are talking about the same person, and meeting her is what prompted me to start this thread a few years ago. I was wondering how common it is for people like that to attend Ivy Leagues on their own.


Wow I didn't realize this thread is 3 years old...
Back to top
Page 6 of 6   Previous  1  2  3  4  5  6 Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Baby girl shabbos stretchies/footies
by ThisMom
4 Today at 8:13 am View last post
Baby girl names with Hashem's name in it
by amother
20 Today at 7:45 am View last post
Toddler girl sneakers
by amother
12 Today at 7:24 am View last post
S/o Top BY school for girl with HFASD
by amother
20 Yesterday at 6:38 pm View last post
Did anyone get accepted to girl’s high school?
by amother
9 Yesterday at 5:15 pm View last post