Did/do you lie to your child's school about media usage?

amother

Fri, Mar 28 2014, 9:17 am

Quote:

Mmmmm not everyone lives surrounded by a dozen of schools.

The school may well be like 80% your hashkafa and that's WOW already. Unfortunately one of the few disagreements is on media. So what? do you send to the school with 40% in common just for media? I wouldn't.

Exactly, Ruchel. That's our situation.

I feel that my husband and I, who use the internet a lot for work and for chesed, are pretty media-savvy, and are in a better position to make educated technology choices than a hanhala that has no internet exposure. I agree with the hanhala that I don't want my kids on the internet. We completely agree. It's not like I'm secretly allowing them to be exposed to it. But for myself, I do use it, I am 100% comfortable using it, and I have no qualms about planning on teaching my kids how to use it when they're older. I feel uncomfortable that when I have to sign the forms, according to the letter of the law, I'm fine, but according to the spirit of the law, I'm not. I wish the forms would be more realistic and take into account that there are different types of parents in the school, and the majority are using internet. I feel it would be better to talk realistically about making good choices. But, I also feel it's not the school's business what I choose to do as long as the children are not being exposed to my stuff, so I guess it's better that they keep using their naive outdated form.

OOTforlife

Fri, Mar 28 2014, 10:16 am

amother wrote:

As someone who felt they same way, how could you mislead the school etc. Until I had to move to a community where I had to follow all these rules.

I am able to keep 95% of them, however for the other 5% I don't have to answer to anyone. I don't even consider it lying who has the right to dictate every move I make. So for my sanity and and the ability to raise my children as I see fit, I do what I need to do.

It is easy to talk until you walk in their shoes, believe me I know now.

Do I think what I am doing is immoral, no I don't. My children don't feel like hypocrites because the majority of their friends families do the same thing. When you make rules that the majority can't keep that is what happens.

Life is not black and white.

For this poster and others with the same approach: did you ask a shaila before deciding your approach? Or did you pasken for yourself that it's OK? I'm 99.9% certain that pretty much every rabbi of every hashkafah would agree that whether or not to lie to a school is a question of halacha, not just mere personal preference.

PinkFridge

Fri, Mar 28 2014, 10:20 am

amother wrote:

Big hugs. I hope your kids don't grow up cynical. And that your inner child doesn't get too cynical either.

OOTforlife

Fri, Mar 28 2014, 10:23 am

Ruchel wrote:

There are rabbis who openly say these policies are nuts, too.
But I think they would say to twist not outright lie...

. I wouldn't be surprised if some would give permission to lie. But even those rabbis would still be viewing it as a shaila requiring psak (even if they paskened leniently). I am curious how many of those who are RW enough to send to a school like this (where the hashkafah is that practically everything is a shaila for one's rav) are seeking a psak/heter to lie and how many are deciding on their own.

Ruchel

Fri, Mar 28 2014, 10:25 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Communities that don't have a lot of schools will often have policies the parent body can live with. Unfortunately, in communities with lots of schools, many of those schools will have the same difficult policies.

The thing is, I'm not talking about a community school.
I'm talking stam a school, unlinked to any community. They will do what they want. People will drive their kids there, or they won't and it will close.
Let's say choice is between a community school that is not even 40% what you need because you're more on the yeshivish side and msot kids there are at best shomer shabbes. And between another school, this unlinked school, which is VERY yeshivish. It's also not the exact fit. maybe 80%.

I don't know, maybe non Euros cannot relate to unlinked schools. My kids go to a school in a city, MUCH MUCH MUCH frummer than the community of this city. They don't have a link. Most students come from other cities.

amother

Fri, Mar 28 2014, 11:18 am

I am one of the parents who lie to the school about having internet at home.
My kids are too young to be on the internet. We have a good filter in place anyway. So I don't see how it is the school's business and I have no problem lying since this isn't something that affects the kids. I am done with school - I don't need to be mechunach by them... (And as someone else pointed out, there are plenty of ppl who ch"V don't have internet at home but spend hours shopping online at the public library or at their workplace. So really, it's not the school's place to tell me how to spend my time when I'm without my kids.)

At the point when my oldest will be able to understnad, we will reevaluate our internet usage.

saw50st8

Fri, Mar 28 2014, 11:24 am

amother wrote:

Why does the school have the rule if the majority don't even listen?

morah

Fri, Mar 28 2014, 11:43 am

I find it very hard to believe that there are significant numbers of families that are truly painted into a corner (at least in the US, can't speak for other countries). I've found that schools that tend to do this are largely found in large frum communities (NY/NJ and otherwise) where there are tons of choices available. The smaller communities, where it's a choice between the community day school and the BY type school, the latter generally does not bother with this narishkeit or they wouldn't exist; the ones that do are the exception.

Maybe it's because I work in Jewish education and happen to be more attuned to these issues, but my DH and I have actually discussed these issues from the time I was pregnant with #1, and made decisions about what we're willing to do or not for the right school. We will never consider a school that cares about internet stuff. Period. TV is a little more complex (we are one of those don't-have-a-TV-set-but-watch-on-the-computer-all-the-time. Yes, we know that means we effectively have a TV). We are willing to forgo TV watching if certain other factors that we won't compromise on are only available at a school that demands that of us. If another school has everything we need and does allow TV, we will continue with the status quo. But we will not send to a school that believes in one thing so strongly and do differently at home. Not just because of the lying. If the school thinks it's important enough to ask/make you sign something, then that's a really fundamental part of who they are and we then have to decide if that's who we want to be, or if it's not for us.

BlueRose52

Fri, Mar 28 2014, 1:01 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

What happens once your children learn/find out that you are lying about something so fundamental? I would lose trust in my parents if I learned that they were lying about something so big. Scratching Head

Thankfully, I've never had to deal with this, as the schools my kids attend don't make such demands, but I don't think this would cause any great loss of trust. At the point that one's kids learn that this lie took place, hopefully they have the maturity to recognize that it was a "necessary" lie, done for their benefit. Kind of like how many parents lie to their kids about Santa.

To me, lying to another is a problem when there's an assumption of good faith, when the two parties are dealing honestly and respectfully with each other. When one party has broken that trust, the other party is no longer compelled to deal honestly with them. IMHO, a school has no right to make demands of what goes on in the privacy of someone's home, and when they hold a child's education hostage based on such demands, they've forfeited the moral high ground which demands an honest relationship. To me, it's no different than if a guy holds a gun to someone's head and makes demands. Is the hostage guilty of lying for saying whatever they need to get through the situation?

amother

Fri, Mar 28 2014, 1:42 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Big hugs. I hope your kids don't grow up cynical. And that your inner child doesn't get too cynical either.

No my older kids are not cynical at all because the deviation is not that big. They have kids in their class who barely follow the rules so they see the difference. As I said there is about a 5% percent difference between the school and my family.

No schools hashkafa will fit to the T of the parent body. Kids are smart enough to pick up nuances.

I will use tznius as an example: Based on what I learned in halacha a woman has to cover her knees in public. That means no matter what position the woman is in her knees have to be covered. Let us say the school has a rule that the skirt has to four inches below the knee. In school my daughters skirts have to follow the rule but I tell my daughters four inches is not the halacha. I tell them the halacha is thatt he knees must be covered. Therefore I would not have a problem buying my daughter a skirt that was less then four inches below the knee as long as it covered her knees at all time.

I have the right to my children my derech, that 5% percent difference then the school.

PinkFridge

Fri, Mar 28 2014, 2:40 pm

morah wrote:

The funny thing is, in some cities yes, there are a lot of schools but within the city limits they may all have similar internet policies. The choice then becomes, do you drive out of town every day.

PinkFridge

Fri, Mar 28 2014, 2:41 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

I don't think they'll lose faith in their parents as much as respect for the school. They'll feel that the school is so out of sync with their parents' values that they won't as be receptive to learning. At least that would be my concern.

PinkFridge

Fri, Mar 28 2014, 2:43 pm

amother wrote:

I think that some of the situations people dealing with here are more than nuances.

And re knees: the best advice I got, from a local mechaneches involved with my daughters' school was, leave the ruler at home, and have your daughter sit down, the way she normally does, in the store. If she's covered, the skirt's good. Again, I'm blessed that I don't send my kids to schools where rulers are used. (Other than drawing straight lines or other math uses.)

amother

Fri, Mar 28 2014, 3:35 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

And I have no problem ammending forms the school sends home and then signing it when I am happy with the statement I am attesting to. Just to give a couple of recent examples:
My son's preschool sent home a letter discussing various new bus rules that are being enacted (no standing until your stop, sitting in the same seat each time, etc) with a statement on the bottom testifying that I discussed it with my son and agree that if he violates a rule, he will not be allowed on the bus. I crossed out the line and changed the statement to read something like, "I discussed the rules with my son and expect him to abide by them. However, I do not accept the terms of punishment, kicking him off the bus, unless that rule is set by the department of education that has provided busing for my son, and not the yeshiva, who neither owns the bus company nor has a right to enforce its own penalties regarding bus riding."
My daughter's preschool emailed a tuition agreement letter asking for a credit care # and signature to authorize tuition deduction each month of the school year. I crossed out the amount and recalculated to remove the "mandatory dinner fee" and put a comment on the side that we will IH decide how much $ to contribute to the dinner when the dinner invitations are mailed, and do not authorize them including that fee in my monthly payments.
Both schools acknowledged receipt of my letters and had no further comment. Don't make yourself a doormat and others will respect you!