How do you tell your older brother that...

amother

Mon, Mar 31 2014, 8:06 pm

How do you tell your older brother that you can't come to his wedding because he's intermarrying? His fiance is presently studying for conversion with a non-Orthodox female Rabbi. We grew up in MO household, but since college this brother has been way OTD. His fiance seems more interested in Judaism than he ever has been. He's also very sensitive and takes offense easily. Since he's older and never been married, my family is just happy that he has someone to love him and to be with him. The woman he's marrying is very lovely. I've asked my LOR and was told that I could not attend the wedding. Please help!

bubbebia

Mon, Mar 31 2014, 9:44 pm

What kind of wedding will it be? When my brother got married we discussed it with our rav and he said we had to be there if there was even a remote chance we could influence her. Also, because it was a civil ceremony it was deemed OK. I think he might have felt differently if it had been anything else. It's a hard place to be. I don't know what to tell you other than you have my thoughts and prayers for a good resolution to the problem.

amother

Mon, Mar 31 2014, 10:15 pm

New amother here.

My little brother, also raised MO & went OTD. Met a girl who told him she only dates Jews bec she's studying to convert. She loved that he was so knowledgeable (well, as knowledgeable as you can be when you drop out of day school at whatever age....)

Anyhow, as time went on she realized his family will only accept her if she converts Orthodox. So, after converting Reform AND Conservative. she "converted" Orthodox.

The thing is, she went to one of the teachers in the conversion program & asked him what to do if she can't go along with some things, like animal sacrifices and women's roles. And after thinking long & hard, he told her he does not advise her to go ahead.

But HE DIDN'T TELL THE BAIS DIN associated with the school. Also, it seems she was not honest with the Bais Din about her marriage plans. I, (big rashanta, I know, but I had to know if I needed to pack up a whole family for this trip) called the school to ask if her geirus was really going to go through, and told them she's planning to marry my brother. And it was news to them.

AND THEY 'CONVERTED' HER ANYHOW.

Oh, but they did say they would only agree if my brother got more serious about his Yiddishkeit, because how could she commit to keeping mitzvos if he wouldn't? So he did go to learn for a bit and his Rosh Yeshiva said he's not going to be the mesader kiddushin OR the mesader of the get.

So she went through the ceremony. I think their son was a year old when they divorced. (She was co-habiting with a non-Jew soon thereafter). The son mostly lived with my brother and his second wife. I know some poskim hold his lineage is questionable, because it's pretty clear that although she said she would keep mitzvos, it was not sincere.

Sigh. And I always planned to write to the Bais Din and ask "WHAT were you thinking?".

Anyhow, hugs, OP. It's rough. My mother always tried to be 'very nice' to her because she was afraid of losing her grandson. I can't be two-faced. I had a hard time being civil when she showed up (e.g. at the bar mitzvah of the second wife's son!?!) Well, what's my point? An 'orthodox' conversion doesn't necessarily solve everything.

imasinger

Mon, Mar 31 2014, 10:25 pm

It might be a good idea to talk to your rav again and ask if there is any way for you to go. If not, maybe he would have an idea about what to say to your brother.

Bottom line, if you are not going, you should let him know how much you love him, and how conflicted you are between your feelings for him, (perhaps with a warm word or two for the good qualities of his fiancee) and your commitment to following halacha as it has been given by your rav.

IOW, let him know that you care, that the situation is painful for both of you, and that you still wish him happiness.

Hatzlacha.

rachelbg

Mon, Mar 31 2014, 10:52 pm

We've been there and done that, and it's no fun. The dialogue began long before brother was engaged, and it was approached again as soon as he asked about our attendance. It wasn't pretty, and there were a lot of emotions, especially from the parents, but in the end of the day we made it all work out. We didn't go, but did make an appearance at some point of their destination wedding weekend, since the extended family would be there and we never get a chance to see them.

Be open and honest. Let him know that you love him as a person, and finance is a lovely girl, but your religious standards don't permit you to attend. It's not because you don't love him. Rather, it's because you love him so much that you cannot condone him marrying out. Tell him that you want a relationship with him to whatever extent he is comfortable with after the wedding, but to you he will always be your brother.

Good luck... it's hard.

amother

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 1:50 am

imasinger wrote:

OP here
Thank you this sounds like good advice

Jewishmom8

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 5:57 am

that is so awful. I think that if your rav told you not to go then don't go.
I had that issue with my aunt when I was a young girl she married a non jew. only my mom went to the reception. there were a lot of hurt feelings and I think that for a while they didnt speak.
now 17+ years later they are still married but my mom and her sister are so so close and speak on the phone every day.
so just to make you feel better even if your not able to go and there is a big family machlokes give it some time and you may just be closer than ever.

amother

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 4:46 pm

OP here
I hate to hurt my brother's feelings even though we have not been close since we were young. Like I said, I like his fiance. I do wonder if he really expects that I'll come. It helps to hear that even after the anger and hurt feelings, siblings were able to mend the relationship. I don't really ever expect to be close with him but I always plan to love him. The wedding date has not been set yet, but as it draws closer, I do plan to speak again to the Rabbi. Thanks to all for the support.

amother

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 5:04 pm

shoshana2

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:43 pm

Unless she is being converted by an orthodox beis din and she is planning on being a shomer Torah u mitzvos your brother will be marrying a non Jew. This is not a celebration but a tragedy. Hashem is crying and you are going to share in their misguided celebration?
I don't understand? Do you love your brother more than you love Hashem?
This is a complicated situation and requires Daas Torah for all questions because as family members we are emotionally involved - as Torah observant jews we want to do the right thing and preserve kabobs shomayim only a posek can give proper guidance in this most difficult situation.

amother

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:04 pm

shoshana2 wrote:

OP here
Well said- completely agree. Wish the rest of my family saw it this way. So far the Rav has said No to my attending the wedding, and I will follow the daas Torah. I don't think any other members of my family plan to ask a Rav before they attend. They are hoping that my brother's fiance will become more and more observant over time. She does seem very interested, but my brother is far from any type of observance, unfortunately. Yes it is emotional. Yes it's sad that this is how he thinks he achieves happiness. And of course I don't like the idea of hurting him.