When other kids misbehave

amother

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 9:47 pm

I used to think this was no big deal, my kids have their own chinuch and I can simply tell them (and enforce) that our family holds by our rules. But a recent experience with Shabbos guests was a lot more difficult than I thought it would be. The poorly behaved child left a while ago already and I feel like my child is still acting up because of either her influence or the stress of her visit or both. The problem is we already invited the same guests for yomtov, which will be even longer, so I really want to arm myself with Wise Imamother Tactics ahead of time and be better prepared. I am pretty sure that this won't have a lasting long-term effect on my kids' chinuch, but I would really like to get through yomtov and the short-term aftermath with as little unpleasantness as possible.

**Note: When describing the children's behavior negatively, I am absolutely not judging or criticizing. I don't need help justifying it - I know where the parents are coming from and why this is so hard for them. The kids have grown up with a lot of deprivation and instability. This is why we are hosting them so much even though they are difficult. Still, understanding and compassion are not enough, I am describing what goes wrong so that I can get help with how to deal with it practically as it relates to my children and my simchas yomtov.

Here were the main problem behaviors, which were annoying/disruptive when they happened and also my own DD has been imitating them even though I made attempts to keep things in line at the time and have reinforced my own discipline since then:
1. almost-4-year-old has no manners. Demands whatever she wants in a rude way. She is not a bad kid, I think she was just never taught proper manners.
2. When she doesn't get what she requested/demanded, she yells. For example, she wanted more cake after I had pronounced dessert finished (DH was of the opinion that it's up to the child's mother, but the mother kept giving in to the kids to the point that I was worried there wouldn't be enough to last through Shabbos for the rest of the family! Including my own 3-year-old who had been told one piece of cake per dessert and she would have more at the next meal) so she started with "Cake! Cake! Cake!" and then "CAAAAAKE! CAAAAAKE!" and eventually there was a full blown tantrum (that actually ended with her getting cake. But I am not going to comment on the parent's methods here. That part actually happened after my own kids were asleep already, she carried on that long. But my kids definitely picked up on this idea that if you don't get what you want, you can screech about it. Which gives me a headache.) My kid was also complaining that the noise of this child carrying on bothered her. It sure bothered me. We have a small apartment, you can't get very far from the noise. The 1.5 year old was also very prone to tantrums and screaming when not getting his way.
3. There was a lot of arguing. Similar to the above, there were interactions between parent and child that sounded like this: Yes. No. Yes. No. Yes. No. Is not. Is too. Is not. Is too. Painful to listen to and very very poor example for my kids whom I am trying to teach that arguing with a parent is not an option (for starters, I would never argue back like that. But I don't like them getting this idea that it isn't always that way.)
4. There was a lot of grabbing. The guest-kids seem to think that the point of toys is to HAVE them. This made my kids pretty sad and upset. Of course, my older kid also went through some phases of grabbing whatever the younger kid had, but she was well over it and now only even thinks of grabbing if she actually wants the item - not just that she must take whatever the other has. And even when she does want it, we did some hard work teaching her not to grab. In any case, this behavior is mostly upsetting for the grabbee. And the parents of the grabees who need to console them or assert their rights to get the item back.
5. The big kids (3 and almost-4) were very nasty to the little kids (1 and almost-2). My 3 y/o had previously had a carefully cultivated very kind attitude towards her younger sibling and babies in general. She often plays nicely with the baby, including her in her games, and when she doesn't want to play together with her she uses tactics like offering her something different to play with, taking turns, or asking a parent for help with baby removal. The guest kid screams EVERY time a baby (hers or mine) comes near, refuses to share anything, physically pushes him away, and talks meanly ("You're not invited" "We don't want you here") basically all kinds of behaviors that my kid would never have even dreamed of trying (again, of course when she was younger she had tried pushing and hitting, but it was generally in self defense not in meanness and now she knows alternatives) I've noticed my kid being less kind to my toddler even after they left, but especially while they were here even after I tried to intervene. I'm worried about her forming new bad habits this way. Also sad and tired of dealing with the sad rejected toddlers. At one point when I didn't like the way it was going, I pulled aside my DD and said something like "It hurts Sara's feelings when you tell her she's not invited. Can you think of another way to deal with this?" She first said "We can play in a place where she can't see us so she won't feel bad" (does this give you an idea of how I've been trying to raise my kids until now?) and then I said "But what if she follows you and finds you? Then what will you say?" so she suggested "You can put up the baby gate so she can't come in the room where we're playing." I added that she can also talk more kindly or ask a parent for help, but agreed that her suggestions were reasonable and put up the baby gate. But even then, instead of continuing with their game undisturbed in the gated room, they hung out at the gate and were teasing the babies hanging on the other side (I first reminded them that the point of the gate was for them to be able to play without the babies, not to stay there next to them. When they still didn't go to play, I told them that if they continued to tease the babies I would take down the gate altogether and they would just have to deal with babies messing up their game. They stopped, but then I had to spend the rest of the afternoon lifting kids back and forth over the gate because they still didn't stay there. Plus, the general not-nice-ness continued whenever the two age groups were together.)

I THINK those were the main problem behaviors. Overall, Shabbos was a real headache and I'm now worried about yomtov. We are in chu"l so we're talking two days, four yomtov-dik meals including two seders, and possibly the night and morning after as well.

I am of the opinion that we can enforce our house rules, and all the children will only benefit because these kids are clearly crying out for some structure and guidance. But DH feels equally strongly that each parent is in charge of their own kids and that I have no right to boss these kids around in front of their parents, no matter how ineffective the parents are. I put down my foot on certain issues that affected me more (e.g. not letting their kids grab from or bully my kids, insisting that food remain at the table especially being a week before Pesach) but did not get involved in things like the manners and tantrum situations even as they happened at my Shabbos table disturbing my peace while my kids watched wide-eyed. I'm not sure this was the best way to handle it but equally unsure if there was another option.

I've decided that for yomtov I need to be more proactive. Before Shabbos I didn't realize how this would be; we had only gotten together with this family for a few hours at a time and they seemed normal enough then, but now I see a lot more dysfunction and now that I know what the problems are I want to have some strategy of how to handle them both to those kids and with my own. For starters, I bought a toy with many pieces that I will give out one piece at a time for any demonstration of good manners, middos, or listening. I don't know how exactly I will handle it - DH won't like this part but I plan to keep a tight hold on it, it is my toy and I will decide when to give it out or the others will just be reinforcing the dysfunction with it (giving it for whining, probably) I also want to be more firm about house rules regarding things like grabbing and sharing toys, but again not exactly sure how to do this. Also not sure where I will get the energy for all this extra parenting after making Pesach and all the meals, but whatever.

Please please share your realistic, practical tips on how to deal with these situations! I'm not so good at translating hypothetical theories into action; would love specific examples of what you would say and do in the kinds of circumstances I've described. Also how to partner better with DH who has a more hands-off approach and dislikes what he considers my meddling (I would not meddle in other people's parenting; the reason I'm meddling is because the other people are not parenting!)

chatouli

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 10:04 pm

I have to be honest, I admire you for even considering having them over again, much less for YT. Would it be possible to find a reason to uninvite them? It is so hard to tolerate other people's children acting this way in a small space for a long period of time. Is your husband seriously OK with them coming back? My DH won't let me invite certain families whose kids drive him nuts, and frankly I don't blame him. It's exhausting enough to have company, forget about wild, uncontrollable company! And I am totally 100% with you that one of my kids will act out for DAYS after spending time with certain other children. It takes a lot of undoing to get him back to his usual self. It may not be worth it.

If you can't gracefully bow out, I have found that if other kids are acting out and the parents are unavailable (or just not doing anything to stop their kids), I speak firmly but kindly to them and say exactly what I would say to my own children, e.g., "The rule in our house is that we don't grab toys. Here, let me give you a special toy that you can play with all by yourself without having to share for awhile. Let's go over here and I'll give you a special pillow to sit on while you play." Then I will take that child by the hand and put them where I want them. Most often, if the kid is not mine, and my tone was friendly but strict, the kid will listen. (My own kids, ha!)

In the case of manners, I would not give a child anything without hearing both please and thank you, and I am not shy about telling other people's children what they need to say if they want anything at all from me. Don't like it? Don't come over.

If these children will not respond to this approach, then, well, um, back to my original point - time to uninvite them and give yourself and your family a relaxing Yom Tov.

amother

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 10:12 pm

OMG I just realized how long that post was! Oopsie. Let me try this again in brief, without the details: Our guests' kids, mostly the oldest - almost 4 y/o - lack chinuch and behave rudely, whining, arguing, tantrums, grabbing, and being mean to smaller kids. My concerns are:
1) my kids (mostly my oldest, 3 y/o) are imitating these behaviors despite my own education/discipline efforts. This effect is lasting beyond the visit so far. I am pretty sure it will not be very long-term, but I would like to minimize the unpleasantness altogether as much as I can. I don't want to have to re-do years' worth of chinuch after every visit with rude children!
2) my kids are on the receiving end of this mean behavior, which is sad for them (especially my toddler who is old enough to know she's being victimized but isn't much able to stand up for herself or understand what is going on) - having toys grabbed from them, being spoken to meanly, etc.
3) It is really annoying both for me and for my kids to spend Shabbos/yomtov this way. These kids create an unhappy atmosphere at both mealtimes and playing times with their frequent misbehavior and whining/tantrums.

Complicating the situation is that my DH and I disagree about our role in this situation. I feel that it's my house and I can set the tone and the rules; he feels that we may not "parent" someone else's child our way, no matter how inadequate their parenting is.

I am seeking practical suggestions how to handle this situation, when someone else's kid is misbehaving on my turf, to or in front of my kids, and their parent is not doing anything effective about it. Strategies, examples, something. They are coming for yomtov and I am getting very nervous.

Help! Thanks!

MaBelleVie

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 10:12 pm

Omg. In my experience, kids do not respond well to other people disciplining them when their own parents are right there. You must be a saint, I would not be able to tolerate any of that without doing something borderline crazy.

amother

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 10:23 pm

chatouli wrote:

I can't believe someone actually read my megilla! I was just about to report it to a mod and ask them to replace it with my new synopsis. LOL. Thanks.

This Shabbos was the first time we had them for more than a few hours, this behavior was not so apparent during the shorter visits. And now it is definitely too late to uninvite them, they really have no place to go - not even their own home. Like I said, there is a reason their kids are so insecure. They are relatives of DH so he appreciates my willingness (er... ahem) to have them (I was more willing when it was the room and food. I did not realize it would be this hard behaviorally.)

The problem is not so much that the parents are unavailable, as ineffective. So, for instance, the mother IS involved and so it WOULD be meddling for me to step in, but all the mother is doing is this childish "is not- is too - is not - is too" type of altercation, rather than putting a stop to the kid's misbehavior. Or when her kid grabs something from mine, she'll talk to him about it but nothing happens (possibly too young to understand) and at best (um?) end up grabbing it back from him, so my kid got back what was grabbed but now there's another tantrum going on. Same thing with manners, I would not give a kid anything if they ask rudely, but can I stop their parent from doing so? e.g. when the cake is sitting on the table? I want my guests to feel comfortable to help themselves (plus saves my energy) but this is pretty silly. Does this mean I should just keep a tighter control on the serving and do more individual portions? I'm not being stingy but the chinuch was just horrible, the kid kept whining for more cake, kept getting more cake, did not eat much else, and over the course of the whole Shabbos probably consumed about 40% of the largish cake I'd made for both families.

Thanks for the "special pillow" illustration. Will definitely be following that model over YT!

Sometimes I tried using the firm tone on their kids but they seemed to just not recognize it much. I guess they are that unfamiliar with discipline. I will certainly be trying it more often and more firmly over YT, I don't think hefkeirus helps anyone - my kids or theirs.

chatouli

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 10:36 pm

Practically speaking with the cake problem, I would put the cake on individual plates in the kitchen and not leave the serving platter on the table. This is actually something I do with my own children. I know if I leave the big grape juice on the table, both of my kids nag for "more more more" but if I pour the juice into the kiddush cup and an extra cup if necessary and then remove the bottle, the temptation is gone. I also tell the kids how BIIIIIG their portion is Wink

even if it's pretty small.

So if you see that the children have certain triggers like sweets, just don't make seconds an option for them. Of course as a good hostess you want the grown ups to have the option of seconds, but in this case, it sounds like that is not worth the problems it causes. Leave the fruit on the table.

If the kids speak disrespectfully to their own parents, that is just awful for your own kids. Ugh. I think what I would do is wait for my DS to speak that way to me, and then correct the behavior fast. E.g. "Mommy, give me that." "DS, in our house, we say 'may I please have.'" "But Sara doesn't say please or thank you!" "Sara doesn't live in our house. In our house, this is how we do it. I want doesn't get." etc.

Good luck!

MiracleMama

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 10:44 pm

Sorry you had such a rough shabbos. I don't think I've had it that bad, but I've had challenging kids visit with lax parents. I do a lot of saying loudly (so parents will hear to) "In our house....", "The rule in our house is....", "Kids at our house....", etc.
I really wish you luck at YT and Hashem should reward you for your patience and kindness.

Frenchfry

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 11:23 pm

I'm kinda with your DH on this one. I don't think in the long term, this will hurt your kids. Kids are pretty good about figuring out what goes with their Mommy, even if the other Mommy is so permisive.

I really don't recommend the piece at a time thing. What I anticipate happening with that, is either: a) your kid naturally earns more, after all they're naturally more well behaved, and then you'll have jealous AND bratty guests on your hands, or b). The guest cries to his mother that he wants piece, piece, piece, piece, PIECE!!!! And she ends up asking for one to keep the "peace". It would be very uncomfortable to say no. All in all, just grin and bear it.

Use lines with your own kid like: "that was a beautiful thank you!" (In a loud voice)

Good luck!!