sinning for a mitzva

baba

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 5:46 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

In most cases it's fine, but aylor for guidelines. People are usually told to offer accommodations so the guest has a real option of staying and not traveling on shabbos.

We were also told to only invite those who technically could walk to our house. So if they chose to drive that's their choice, but they could have walked.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 6:21 am

Volunteer wrote:

Yes, I think you're right. The idea that a person can fulfill the mitzvah of sukkah with stolen goods has to do with the fact that the mitzvah is to dwell in the sukkah; the building is not part of the commandment technically, so it doesn't directly affect the act of sitting in the sukkah. Also, when a thief steals raw materials and builds them into a structure, the thief (albeit illegally) acquires the materials, so the sukkah is technically his. He still has to return what he stole, but not by tearing down his structure and returning that wood that was already cut; instead he has to return money equal in value to what he stole. Obviously, the whole thing is immoral, and I'll bet the Ribono Shel Olam doesn't view it too kindly to say the least.

Volunteer, you and MaBelleVie are both correct that the thief has to pay back the monetary value of what he took. The point is that although his sitting in the sukkah was enabled by his sin, he still fulfills the mitzvah of sitting in the sukkah. This is different from the lulav case, where the person has to give back the lulav AND hasn't fulfilled the obligation of taking lulav. That's the difference.

greenfire

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 5:34 pm

what about reminding someone to take their 'food' that was not kosher ... hashovas avaida - to eat treif ... or do you throw it out aka 'steal' so that they don't eat it ...

amother

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 7:00 pm

I know a male convert who had tefillin before he converted. He brought them to a sofer for a repair and somehow he mentioned that he wasn't converted yet. The sofer believed that any man who is not Jewish (yet) shouldn't use tefillin, so he basically stole the guy's tefillin (he never returned them). The sofer thought he was "rescuing" the tefillin from him. Understandably, the guy (who later converted) was pretty upset.

greenfire

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 7:02 pm

amother wrote:

that's a little too holier than thou - did the guy ever get them back ??? please say yes

amother

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 11:25 am

How about cursing H-shem while cleaning for Pesach

greenfire

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 11:31 am

amother wrote:

How about cursing H-shem while cleaning for Pesach

I could think of bigger things to curse for than cleaning for pesach ... but you did make me laugh Wink

amother

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 12:14 pm

When we used to live in Queens, someone broke the door to the men's mikva so they could tovel erev shabbos. (It was already locked) what a mitzvah haba b'aveira.

Ruchel

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 12:48 pm

To save your life you could steal food, for ex.

Eat on Kippur.

Some do hold you can invite someone who will drive anyway for shabbes, even if there's no way he'll walk. Most seem not to.

amother

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 2:30 pm

greenfire wrote:

that's a little too holier than thou - did the guy ever get them back ??? please say yes

No, he never got them back.

PinkFridge

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 4:55 pm

Ruchel wrote:

To save your life you could steal food, for ex.

Eat on Kippur.

Some do hold you can invite someone who will drive anyway for shabbes, even if there's no way he'll walk. Most seem not to.

If a rav paskens that someone should eat, eating is not an aveirah for him. Fasting is.

amother

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 8:53 pm

How about giving someone a bath so that they don't smell in shul?