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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions
Stainless steel and Kashrut
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amother


 

Post Thu, Apr 17 2014, 2:06 am
This is super interesting!
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/.....shrut
What do you think?
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 17 2014, 10:12 am
amother wrote:
This is super interesting!
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/.....shrut
What do you think?


I can't get youtube on this computer. Can you distill? And who is the rabbi speaking?
And - and it's possible that your answer to these might give a clue to the last question - why are you amother? Tongue Out
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amother


 

Post Thu, Apr 17 2014, 11:58 am
Well, amother because this is exactly one of those "interesting discussions"!
The Rabbi is Rabbi David Bar Hayim, from Machon Shilo.
But in this case the interview is about if he agrees or not with the opinion of Rav Lior from Kyriat Arba, who said that stainless steel pots do not absorb taste and could be used for meat and dairy.
Rabbi Bar Hayim mentions 2 Torah scholars conducted an experiment and discovered that the would be in the order of 1/107.000.
The absorption that the halacha mentions is 1/60, and this is not even close to that!
So, in the past most pots were made of ceramic, and it made sense to use different pots because there really was an absorption.
But now that we can test this scientifically, and stainless steel does not, I am curious how this will affect most people!
In short, Rav Bar Hayim agrees with Rav Lior and agrees that stainless steel it permissible for both!
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 17 2014, 12:37 pm
Thanks for answering.
I've heard about this. I was so groggy and pre-coffee that for some reason I was thinking, steel wool and kashrus. Had I processed it correctly the first time I would have guessed it was along these lines.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Apr 17 2014, 1:19 pm
I wonder if some people will change the way they see these items in terms of kashrut. My rational side tells me it makes no sense to adopt my old view regarding stainless steel, since there is new scientific info, my emotional side is still trying to process the new info!
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 17 2014, 1:47 pm
But...there is absorbing and there is cleaning. Can you be sure that your pot is 100% clean? I take a look at my pots and as I don't have a dishwasher I clean by hand. And there are parts of the pot that have indentations, that things can get stuck, there are cases where people fry in a stainless steel pot and then try to get off everything...you have to use steel wool and even then, there are minute scratches which remain on the pot. And then there are the handles. Lots of stainless steel pots here (think Soltam) have plastic handles which then could always have a drop of whatever is being cooked stuck near it, under it etc. unless you unscrew the handles each time and scrub with steel wool or whatever and stick toothpicks into the holes etc.

Is it worth the trouble? I don't think so. I wouldn't risk it. We can afford new pots.
Sure, today we do a lot of things differently than one did 1000 years ago. People didn't have dishes, they often ate on planks. Did they have different planks for milchig and fleishig or did they just shave off a layer of the plank? Did people even have cooked milchilgs 1000 years ago? And what about two sets of sinks, dishdrains, dishrags, or sides of a kitchen? All new inventions. So first, we totally keep much of what we call "kashruth" differently than 1000 years ago...meat is meat and milk is still milk and never the twain may meet, but as for everything around.....
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Chana Miriam S




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 17 2014, 3:01 pm
this makes me laugh. I teach/learn kashrut using Rabbi Binyamin Forst's books as the foundation of our learning. my chevrusa looks so baffled when we are talking about 'tastes' and 'transfers' and basically, I acknowledge that this is pretty much gobbledygook today when using glass, stainless, aluminum and that we, of course know better, but what is judaism without its traditions, so of course we do what we do pretty much as we have always done it. Sure things change, but a lot of the practice of judaism is hocus pocus anyways, and we do it because part of being jewish is listening to our leadership in das torah.

of course, there are often many different attitudes and opinions in judaism and you can shop opinion, but I will say that on a practical level (and I have a kitchen with double meat sinks, double milk sinks and an extra sink for hand/veg washing) it is much easier to keep things separate and not make mistakes when things are separate. Originally that third sink was pareve but now it stays mostly meat because slowly all my pareve stuff became meat by mistake. If one held that stainless could be used for pareve then one would need all their items to be stainless for a kitchen in which that was being done to work most easily, plates and all.

and then there is that any non ben yomo pot can be used as a pareve pot, even among very strict holders. not saying everyone, but it IS a mainstream opinion. for sure bedi eved and often lehatchila.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Apr 17 2014, 10:26 pm
I don't know, I know many sepharadim that use only glass for both meat and dairy, and they seem to do fine cleaning wise...
I know I'll probably remain with my separate dish sets, but just because I am not used to this idea yet!
But honestly, given the evidence, this is HUGE!
Why is it sooo easy for people to accept modern chumrot that make life more difficult, but when it comes to decisions that make life easier people want to ignore?
Is it really for the sake of tradition or is it just because we are all so scared of being looked upon as not-so-frum?
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amother


 

Post Thu, Apr 17 2014, 10:28 pm
freidasima wrote:
But...there is absorbing and there is cleaning. Can you be sure that your pot is 100% clean? I take a look at my pots and as I don't have a dishwasher I clean by hand. And there are parts of the pot that have indentations, that things can get stuck, there are cases where people fry in a stainless steel pot and then try to get off everything...you have to use steel wool and even then, there are minute scratches which remain on the pot. And then there are the handles. Lots of stainless steel pots here (think Soltam) have plastic handles which then could always have a drop of whatever is being cooked stuck near it, under it etc. unless you unscrew the handles each time and scrub with steel wool or whatever and stick toothpicks into the holes etc.

Is it worth the trouble? I don't think so. I wouldn't risk it. We can afford new pots.
Sure, today we do a lot of things differently than one did 1000 years ago. People didn't have dishes, they often ate on planks. Did they have different planks for milchig and fleishig or did they just shave off a layer of the plank? Did people even have cooked milchilgs 1000 years ago? And what about two sets of sinks, dishdrains, dishrags, or sides of a kitchen? All new inventions. So first, we totally keep much of what we call "kashruth" differently than 1000 years ago...meat is meat and milk is still milk and never the twain may meet, but as for everything around.....
Food residue (1/60) is batel, so it would not make a difference. Plastic mixed with stainless steel of course would have a different status, but plain stainless steel would be fine.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 17 2014, 11:07 pm
was just discussing this idea of batel b'shishim & why then don't we use the same dishes, etc. based on this - because than nothing is really one or the other ...

however, the idea of batel is only b'dieved - you can't go pouring milk into a meat soup just because it's 1/60 - but if it happens by mistake then it's still kosher ... so the same would apply to the entire premise
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amother


 

Post Thu, Apr 17 2014, 11:16 pm
greenfire wrote:
was just discussing this idea of batel b'shishim & why then don't we use the same dishes, etc. based on this - because than nothing is really one or the other ...

however, the idea of batel is only b'dieved - you can't go pouring milk into a meat soup just because it's 1/60 - but if it happens by mistake then it's still kosher ... so the same would apply to the entire premise
I get where you are coming from, but if the premise is that stainless steel and glass don't absorb taste, and a person cleans it very well and uses it for both meat and dairy, if it happens that some residue that we really can't see gets stuck, then everything would be fine by halacha. However, I totally get how it is to just wrap our minds around something that could make things very different!
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 18 2014, 8:51 am
My personal experience is that glass is easier to restore to its state than stainless. (But I am no balabuste.)
Your wondering about new chumros where they don't belong is not a new theme, but I have to say, I don't have in my frame of reference anyone who used to keep stainless for both but then fell prey to the chumra movement. It just seems much simpler to have two sets. Also, if more than one person cooks (think kids making their own eggs) you need a real commitment on the part of all the cooks to clean quickly and well.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Apr 18 2014, 10:47 am
what about a dishwasher? do you need two separate ones?
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amother


 

Post Fri, Apr 18 2014, 11:45 am
amother wrote:
what about a dishwasher? do you need two separate ones?
Depends on the rabbi. Some will say you need a separate one, others will allow the same one for both(because some will say it's been techinically doing hagala while washing)
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amother


 

Post Fri, Apr 18 2014, 2:11 pm
amother wrote:
what about a dishwasher? do you need two separate ones?
This might interest you too(it's about same oven use, not dishwasher though), I don't know how I feel about it though: http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/.....-oven
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amother


 

Post Fri, Apr 18 2014, 2:15 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
My personal experience is that glass is easier to restore to its state than stainless. (But I am no balabuste.)
Your wondering about new chumros where they don't belong is not a new theme, but I have to say, I don't have in my frame of reference anyone who used to keep stainless for both but then fell prey to the chumra movement. It just seems much simpler to have two sets. Also, if more than one person cooks (think kids making their own eggs) you need a real commitment on the part of all the cooks to clean quickly and well.
Yeah, I guess if kids are involved it's a whole different picture! But I think it's because this stainless steel business is quite new, while glass is not, so maybe that is the reason why. I know I have never seen anyone use same stainless steel set for both! But it does make me wonder, even I cannot be completely rational about this!
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amother


 

Post Fri, Apr 18 2014, 2:22 pm
our rabbi allows us to rely on this in order to eat at my (not frum) in laws house. Essentially, he endorses that stainless steel is not mekabel tam, but this is not sufficient for our own home. But this PLUS kibud av AND maintaining shalom IS sufficient. For our rabbi. For us.
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amother


 

Post Sat, Apr 19 2014, 9:18 pm
amother wrote:
our rabbi allows us to rely on this in order to eat at my (not frum) in laws house. Essentially, he endorses that stainless steel is not mekabel tam, but this is not sufficient for our own home. But this PLUS kibud av AND maintaining shalom IS sufficient. For our rabbi. For us.
Doesn't it seem a little weird to you to allow it under some circumstances but not others?For example, a food is either kosher or not. There is no half kosher food!
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Chana Miriam S




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 19 2014, 10:05 pm
amother wrote:
Doesn't it seem a little weird to you to allow it under some circumstances but not others?For example, a food is either kosher or not. There is no half kosher food!


Actually, you are mistaken. It is not kosher for you to eat at her parents house. It is her das Torah. You should ask your own rabbi.
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Chana Miriam S




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 19 2014, 10:08 pm
andrea levy wrote:
Actually, you are mistaken. It is not kosher for you to eat at her parents house. It is her das Torah. You should ask your own rabbi.


Further a classic Sheila where the same rabbi says the same thing to two different women is the women, 1 rich, one poor who cook their chickens with the livers in. The rich one has to get another chicken, the poor one doesn't. You don't sem to know nearly enough about kashrut if you think that 100 percent applies to much beyond the basics in kashrut.
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