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amother

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 10:05 am

We had guests for the seder who came with their oung kids. I have set the table keeping in mind where everyone would sit.
As they came one of the kids, age 4, went straight to the seder table and wished to remain there. That was actually my place but I thought ok, I am not going to move him as we are not eating yet anyway Well when the men came from the shul the child announced that thats where he wants to sit and he stays in my place. To my surprise, the parents said ok and rearranged themselves, even though I have shown them where to sit. I remained quiet for now because my own kids started to yell that this is mommy's place. This has always been my place because it is close to the kitchen and it is next to my kids, and they want to sit next to me. Whatever, the kid didnt move and the parents made no effort to move him. I started to get nervous and as my dh came to get a kiddush cup in the kitchen I qhispered that he has to do something because I want to sit in my place. He came back and after some cojoling we managed to have him sit right next to me.
I felt so bad through entire thing because I invited them and really wanted to have them over, butthe lack of basic derech eretz really upset me!! It may seem childish to insist on my seat, but I think that making baalas habait move just because your child have decided spmwthibg is a bit over the top!

Am I wrong?

mummiedearest

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 10:16 am

I think you were wrong not to say anything. when the kid said he wanted to sit there, you should have said he couldn't. there's nothing wrong with that. some parents will let the kid make decisions if they don't know it isn't acceptable to all there.

Eemaof3

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 10:17 am

No, you are not wrong! You have your makom and you should be allowed to maintain it. Would the parents have allowed this if it had been your dh's seat? Of course not! You are the baalat habayit and your rules/preferences should apply. Total lack of derech eretz!

MiracleMama

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 10:30 am

I would have insisted on my seat too. It's not petty at all.

greenfire

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 10:43 am

it's a long tedious seder - you want to be comfortable ... it makes sense

but those people do seem to have their kid wrapped around their finger ... he should have been re-directed to a 'special chair just for him' before he got too comfy

amother

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 10:53 am

You should have just said that was your seat you serve from instead of letting your children speak for you. It would have ended.

amother

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 11:00 am

amother wrote:

You should have just said that was your seat you serve from instead of letting your children speak for you. It would have ended.

I did! As the whole seating process started, I told him gently, that I have prepared a spot for him but he remained in my place.In the end it turned out that he liked the actual chair, because I put a higher kids chair for him, but he wanted mine. So I just switched the chairs.
The fact that they just didnt react when I, dh, and My kids said many times that he is not sitting there, is so puzzling. They kinda delegated the whole thing to us.

OP

amother

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 11:29 am

Two thoughts: was he their first and only? When I was much younger and much more clueless, the world revolved around my oldest. I have since learned....

I have another son who is special needs but not overtly so. He has mild autism. We sometimes jump through hoops in public to keep him under control because once he "starts" it's all downhill....

So I get it. I have a seat, I wouldn't let another child just hop in, especially on such an important night. Bu dan lkaf zchus, this family may have some reasons or just be innocently clueless.

miami85

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 12:08 pm

Two things I can take from this story--having my own special place at the table recently usurped by my own 3 year old as well as years of experience working with toddlers/preschoolers. It was good that you figured out that it was the chair and not the place at the table.

I recall a story of American/Israeli relatives who spent the days before the wedding trying to make seating arrangements for their oldest child's wedding--being that there would be many American/Europeans at the wedding and would be expecting it, and then there would be many Israelis at the wedding not so accustomed. They literally were going nuts over this process. Come the wedding there were so many errors, that in the end they made an announcement "sit where you want". I felt very bad considering how much time they had spent on seating arrangements/place cards.

When being the host we spend a lot of emotional energy making everything "just so". However, Murphy's Law of kids--is that the kids don't care. Especially with the late hour of the seder, many parents succumb to a "whatever works" mentality.
Could they have been more attune to etiquette? Yes?
However is it worth looking like a "bad hostess" to make a fuss?
Was it your place because it was conveniently located near the kitchen? Was it near your husband? Was it obvious that it was your place?
The parent also could have given in to their child thinking that he would not last and it wasn't worth making a fuss about.
Think about the s'char you got for 1)not making a fuss 2)being sensitive to your guests needs (hachnasas orchim)

Fox

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 1:16 pm

ITA with Miami!

Between the exhausting run-up to Pesach and the late hour of the seder, we should probably regard it as an open miracle that the whole thing doesn't fall apart any more than it does. Plenty of people who are normally well-behaved, attuned to social cues, and conscientious parents are simply done in by the time the seder arrives.

However, I'd make one suggestion for the future: place cards!

Although I don't host such large groups anymore, I found that place cards saved me a world of trouble. Forget recalcitrant kids! Even at a regular Shabbos meal, guests may arrive at different times or wander into the dining room and seat themselves while you're handling some emergency in the kitchen.

Of course, there were always last-minute changes, but somehow the presence of place cards made everyone a little more aware that they (and their children) couldn't just plop themselves down wherever it suited them. And since our hashkafos include not seating unrelated men and women next to one another, it prevented the pre-seuda game of musical chairs that ensues when the hostess tries to figure out how to seat everyone appropriately.

Bruria

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 2:20 pm

You are right, but maybe this kid is prone to tantrums and the parents could have been just scared to move him and make things much, much more unpleasant!

Peanut2

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 6:39 pm

So that's the kind of thing I might do under certain circumstances, especially if it's at our family or very close friends. My kid does not stay seated so there is just no point in having a kid with a tantrum (which would happen so late on seder night) for the less than five minutes she would stay seated.

abound

Sat, Apr 19 2014, 1:17 pm

I understand you and why you wanted the seat. But you may not have the whole story. This child might have slight Asperger's or autism, or some other condition. He may tantrum and go completely out of control if he is moved around. It could be that he is more comfortable with his parents and will fight back more if his parents are the ones taking care of it whilst if you or DH deal with it he will be more amenable.

amother

Sat, Apr 19 2014, 3:54 pm

It is OP

First of all, thank you! I just needed a confirmation that I wasnt completely out of line.
My table is positioned in such a way that one side is closer to the kitchen and the other side is by the window and extremely uncomfortable to go in and out. So that side is reserved for gentlemen, and the one by the kitchen for ladies who help serve and are busy with kids.
When they switched places, the spot left for me was next to this child's father - inappropriate!
Why would you say that I should let everyone sit wherever rhey want? People usually sit next to their kids, and aqay from other peoples spouses, so it needs to be taken into account.

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