Marry a Man You Do Not Love

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 12:27 pm

"Just anybody" is not what people do. They do their best to get it right and it doesn't always work. Saying they married "just anybody" isn't fair.

People in obviously horrible marriages aren't under discussion here. The woman in the story never claimed she was being treated badly.

We are discussing respectful but connection-less marriages.

Human connection may not be easy, some people may be better at it than others, some people may imagine a lot of nonsense about it when they don't really know a lot about it, and yes, having someone around can be better than solitude.

As for "giving birth to them" yes, this is a blood relative who has plenty in common with you, genetically and behaviorally. A fair amount of the time. Some of your kids will be more like you than others. That's why it's good to have a lot of them, so you increase your chances of friendly company.

You have to work. Work for developing intimacy. There is a magical notion that it Happens if you married the Right person. There is some truth to that, but it's not the whole truth.

And the complainer in the story sounds like a piece of work. A zombie. What story would her husband have written? She sounds emotionally lazy and entitled. Did you ask how his day went, princess? Did you try to get to know him?

YES it falls to the woman to do more of the emotional work. We do not marry gushing men who natter on about their aches and pains and kvetches. You have to try, princess. Did you? How hard? If you were too tired, realize he was tired too. Tired is no sin. But be patient with the other guy's tired, also.

Boredom may be a two-way street. Are you attractive, princess? Do you talk between rooms? Do you take him for granted? Do you give orders? Are you interesting? Are you emotionally forthcoming yourself, dearie? That's what I would say to the woman in the story. Not to anyone on Imamother.

Yes, marrying just for zichus and disdaining nice people for stupid reasons is not right.

That's called going too far and not using your noggin. We agree about that.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Sun, Jun 29 2014, 1:10 pm; edited 2 times in total

Capitalchick

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 8:43 pm

Wow. Your post is so presumptuous about so many things, I don't even know where to begin...

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Being married, even dully, can bring children.

Children give you something to think about that matters. They are also blood relatives who owe you a lot, and some of them may take an interest in you for life. That's a big thing. That is more than a friend. That has to be earned. Part of the price may be a boring marriage in some cases.

Ok, so that's what YOU think, but I can tell you that I would rather be alone than have children in a loveless marriage. How horrific to have to raise a house full of children alone (because you have nothing in common with your husband, and he signs up for shiurs 23 hours a day so that he, too, can avoid you). You cannot generalize and assume that everyone will be OK in the situation you describe above. Wow...

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Children are more interesting than the average job.

...and a lot of women adore their kids and find that staying home all day (with no outside employment) is mind numbingly boring. Perhaps if you have a boring, average job, this would be true, but many of us have fascinating jobs that make us pinch ourselves and think "what kind of blessing must have been bestowed upon me to have landed this unbelievable job? I never would have imagined myself here and I love ever minute of it!! Wave

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Sure it's nice to be surer of whom you are marrying, by dating a longer time.

But good things come with a PRICE. We know that in a store, but forget it in life.

The price, here, can be, depending on your luck, rather high. Some skate into happiness, and some get hammered.

Hello!! The exact same thing can be said about the shidduch system! There are those for whom it works well, and then there are those who suffer a life of pure, excruciating misery because of it. So..no points for you there, my friend.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

I am not for public touching before marriage. Then, oh the joy of the yichud room.

"I am not for any touching before the 10th date. Then, oh the joy of that first make out session"...same thing.
Really...in the long run, who cares whether your fireworks happen in the yichud room or while you're engaged? This thread is about lifelong happiness. If there was a thread about 'making your wedding day as exciting/nerve wracking as possible', then we might be able to have that conversation...But we're talking about a LIFETIME of happiness. Why do the 7 minutes in the yichud room matter?

I am NOT advocating sleeping with 10 people before getting married. But I am trying to show you that you seem to prize this magical yichud room experience which....REALLY doesn't matter at all, in terms of your lifelong happiness. The time/location/stage of your first touch does not make or break your relationship.

PLUS...no matter what you've done, the yichud room is special because it's the first time just being alone as a married couple. You just got married...it's special!

Dolly Welsh wrote:

I am ~~bemused by~~ judgemental of the physically clutching and embracing couples in the engagement photos on the Only Simchas website. The yichud room won't mean anything to these people.

Again, as requested above, please elaborate on why that matters in the long run...at all

Dolly Welsh wrote:

They have decided to dispense with the sharp demarcation between being married and not being married. They may have not gone all the way yet, who knows, probably not, but the magic of newly permitted touch, the magic of finally attained, longed for, loved skin, is lost to them.

They have de-ceremonialized. No wrapping paper. No bow. Just nature. Nature does not gift wrap anything.

They have thereby diminished their own fun.

They have diminished and flattened their lives, by eliminating the nodal points. They have substituted a gradual slide for a sharp demarcation.

You are saying that, by touching before marriage, that first married touch is no longer special. Ok, let's go with that for a minute...If only a first touch can be special, doesn't that mean that the SECOND touch of a couple who has touched before marriage compared to one who hasn't, is exactly the same?

Are you REALLY ready to pass judgement on whether their entire marriage will be successful because of how their first touch in the yichud room felt?

Let's call a spade a spade...There are a lot of frum people who have been so sheltered in their lives, that the mere fact of being left alone in the yichud room with their opposite gender spouse is anxiety inducing. These are not the cute little excited couples who get all giggly and passionate as they share their first kiss in the yichud room. For many couples, the gender segregation is so extreme, that it takes them months to even feel comfortable being in a room together, let alone touching. I'm not sure what kind of 'fireworks' these people are experiencing in the yichud room, but I'm pretty sure it's more fizzle than bang...more 'owww' than "ooohhhh ahhhh". There are a lot of socially paralyzed folks in the frum world.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

You also haven't gone to mikvah yet. So, TH is out the window for you?

TH is not an all or nothing thing. Many believe that going to mikvah and keeping TH is about sanctifying your marriage. What happened before the marriage is completely irrelevant.

There are others who only begin keeping TH years after they got married. Are you saying that their mitzvah is somehow lesser than yours?

Dolly Welsh wrote:

I mean, are you orthodox? You don't look it, wrapped around your friend like that, before the wedding.

Orthodoxy is not a fashion. Not a label. Not a 'look'. It's about three things: Shabbos, Kashrut and Taharah Hamishpacha. You can't really 'get that' from an engagement shot...even if the couple is touching. I'm sorry if your teachers have made you forget about the fundamentals, or made you believe that, somehow, the chumras, details, cultural norms of some place in New Jersey, etc. are what make one Orthodox. They don't.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 9:33 pm

No, as a late life BT, I am not throwing any stones at people who do TH only later on.

I DID slyly mention a little bit of clandestine touching before the wedding. I mentioned the charm of the clandestine. If it feels right. Not everybody needs to. The girl would have the sense to know when to let that happen, and when not. We are not saints and some of us live stricter than others. We can confess on Yom Kippur.

But PUBLIC, not private, public, full body clutching, to me, is in poor taste in a posed frum engagement photo. It's entirely the norm in another culture, but we have our own ideas. I gave up x-mas. And x-mas was fun. So YES, frum has its own style, and it isn't red and green decorations, with pretty little lights, in December, cute as they are. They aren't bad, but frum is something else.

There are single people, both religious and secular, who have a tough time, too. I am not sure where more misery lies, in a dull marriage or in solitude, in staying home on the domestic front, or an office job.

There is no probe thermometer to give a read-out about who has a harder time.

It does not show.

People who dress for business and talk merrily about their jobs may not really be any happier than anybody else, when they are at home and nobody is looking. And frum wives who look beleaguered and bored may just be tired, and may in fact be deeply happy.

Because of my background, I am acquainted with the vaguely serially relationshipped ghosts who wander, dead-eyed, around my secular acquaintance, and family.

I am more sorry for them than for the over-burdened frum mothers who don't feel all that close to their beleaguered and un-talkative husbands.

Capitalchick

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 10:58 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Well, that all sounds a heck of a lot more reasonable than before. Not much for me to argue with.