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Annoyed at father-in-law-vent
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allrgymama




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 11 2014, 8:59 am
amother wrote:
Dressing her more tznius for grandparents would be hard because we see them fairly often (they have a summer home here). Its not like we can dress up special 4 times a year.

I agree that there needs to be boundaries now.


Well, my grandparents moved to Lakewood in December, so we've been seeing them more often, too. (My parents and in-laws don't have any issue with how we dress our girls.) I'm thinking that the reason why he didn't say anything earlier is because she was wearing long sleeves through the winter and early spring, so he may not have seen her in short sleeves enough times since her birthday for him to register that he might think he ought to have a problem with it.

OP, you actually inspired me to stick to my guns. I called my mother and asked her (if it ever comes up in conversation with my grandmother), to reiterate our point of view, which is that we dress our daughter's in a completely age-appropriate way for where we live in Lakewood, as well as for the school that we will be sending to.

Thank you!
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jul 11 2014, 9:03 am
Chayalle wrote:
Since you are in Lakewood - DH and I asked our Rav (you can p.m. me if you want to know who) about tznius for our DD's, and he advised us that in absence of a family minhag that is more strict (neither my father nor my FIL could care less how I dress my 3 year old, so long as they are tznius by the time they are, say, 9 or so) we could rely on the Chazon Ish's psak of 5-6.....but that in Lakewood we should follow minhag hamakom which is 5 or Primary, whichever is first.

So our DD's wore short socks, short sleeves, etc...as you describe, until their 5th birthday, and with one DD until Primary as her birthday was in late September.


Maybe you could buy one Bubby-Zeidy outfit. Or a cardigan.

I understand your feelings, glad my FIL isn't fussy about that. I have a close friend who gets the same from her in-laws, her FIL wouldn't make kiddush in front of her 3-year-old with short sleeves. I guess he feels that's his minhag.


Minhag might be the wrong word -- maybe mesorah? The Mishna Berura paskens that it is assur to say dvarim shebikedusha in front of ervah of a female of age >= 3. If your friend's FIL paskens according to the MB, he holds that it is assur for him to say kiddush in front of her 3 year old's bare elbows. Honestly, I think that if he holds that way, a grandfather has the right to request that 3 year old girls dress in accordance with his standards so that he may make kiddush in his own home.

(OP, is your FIL around a lot with your daughter? Is it an issue of ervah -- he feels that he cannot learn or make brachos around her -- or just chinuch?)
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 11 2014, 9:04 am
Chayalle wrote:
Since you are in Lakewood - DH and I asked our Rav (you can p.m. me if you want to know who) about tznius for our DD's, and he advised us that in absence of a family minhag that is more strict (neither my father nor my FIL could care less how I dress my 3 year old, so long as they are tznius by the time they are, say, 9 or so) we could rely on the Chazon Ish's psak of 5-6.....but that in Lakewood we should follow minhag hamakom which is 5 or Primary, whichever is first.

So our DD's wore short socks, short sleeves, etc...as you describe, until their 5th birthday, and with one DD until Primary as her birthday was in late September.


Maybe you could buy one Bubby-Zeidy outfit. Or a cardigan.

I understand your feelings, glad my FIL isn't fussy about that. I have a close friend who gets the same from her in-laws, her FIL wouldn't make kiddush in front of her 3-year-old with short sleeves. I guess he feels that's his minhag.


Minhag might be the wrong word -- maybe mesorah? The Mishna Berura paskens that it is assur to say dvarim shebikedusha in front of ervah of a female of age >= 3. If your friend's FIL paskens according to the MB, he holds that it is assur for him to say kiddush in front of her 3 year old's bare elbows. Honestly, I think that if he holds that way, a grandfather has the right to request that 3 year old girls dress in accordance with his standards so that he may make kiddush in his own home.

(OP, is your FIL around a lot with your daughter? Is it an issue of ervah -- he feels that he cannot learn or make brachos around her -- or just chinuch?)
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jul 11 2014, 9:20 am
Her FIL does not need to look at the child when he is making kiddush or brachos.

The OP is following the minhag hamakom where she lives. Her FIL does not have the right to dictate to her what to do.

I have a niece who does not dress tznius according to halacha, low neckline does not cover her knees. She goes to my fathers house dressed like that. My father is a Rav he does not say one word to her because it will damage their relationship, ruin his relationship with her children and can cause her chas vesholem to do worse things. He just doesn't look at her when he makes kiddush and brachos and at other times since she is his granddaughter there is a mekor he can see her like that.

OP, the one to handle this is your DH with his father. Don't get involved. DH should tell his father I am following the minhag hamakom where I live and you have to accept it.
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 11 2014, 11:24 am
amother wrote:
Her FIL does not need to look at the child when he is making kiddush or brachos.

The OP is following the minhag hamakom where she lives. Her FIL does not have the right to dictate to her what to do.

I have a niece who does not dress tznius according to halacha, low neckline does not cover her knees. She goes to my fathers house dressed like that. My father is a Rav he does not say one word to her because it will damage their relationship, ruin his relationship with her children and can cause her chas vesholem to do worse things. He just doesn't look at her when he makes kiddush and brachos and at other times since she is his granddaughter there is a mekor he can see her like that.

OP, the one to handle this is your DH with his father. Don't get involved. DH should tell his father I am following the minhag hamakom where I live and you have to accept it.


It is definitely possible that her FIL is out of line and should be more tolerant, but her FIL is (hopefully) not on imamother asking for advice.

I see a distinction between a FIL telling his DIL how to dress her daughter in general (as in, I don't agree with your chinuch decisions and I will tell you how to make them better) vs. a FIL requesting that his granddaughter dress in accordance with his standards when she visits in order to make things easier for him in his own home because he cannot make a bracha or learn while looking at her.

I don't know, when we see my in-laws, I try to dress my kids in clothing that my MIL bought for them because she gets pleasure out of seeing them dressed in her presents. When I am planning on getting together with my younger sister, I try to dress my kids in the outfits that she likes best of their wardrobe because I know that she enjoys seeing her nieces/nephews dolled up in [insert name of clothing]. Is it so much different to say that if you are going to see your FIL, you dress your 3-year old daughter in accordance with his piskei halacha because he benefits from not having to turn around all the time?

I have no idea how OP's FIL meant his comments and I can see why OP is hurt, but why NOT buy one long-sleeved shirt and one long skirt and dress your DD in them every time you visit? As long as he is not telling you what to do outside his home, the request seems reasonable.
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