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Disney movies- yes or no?
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jul 21 2014, 6:18 pm
debsey wrote:
I have one son who has no friends nearby. It was quite a challenge to get him occupied. So what I had to do was get him lessons and lessons and lessons in all sorts of things. Finally, he found his interest - cartooning - and this keeps him very busy - had I had videos as an option, I wouldn't have stretched as far as I did, and he wouldn't have discovered this interest. But that's my JOB.
I am very blessed that my kids like to read (most of them, one struggles) but I wonder, would they have loved it if there was an easier option available?
And I work full time. No time for hanging out on playgrounds. We just figure it out.....I'm very jealous of mothers who have hours to hang out at playgrounds with their kids.
debsey


So for the few hours in the evening you're home you don't let any videos, and then you're so judgmental of those who allow it occasionally?
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 21 2014, 7:01 pm
amother wrote:
So for the few hours in the evening you're home you don't let any videos, and then you're so judgmental of those who allow it occasionally?

Not at all. I'm describing my thought processes. And if you read my original post, you'd see that I also allow videos occasionally - but only in summer.
Judgmental implies criticism, as opposed to an exploration of our values. But we can't describe our thinking without describing what we don't want to do, right? If you took it as criticism of YOU in particular - as you are an amother, I can't exactly PM you to apologize. I'm not talking about YOUR parenting - do what you want. I'm talking about mine. If reading about my thought process helps or interests you, great. If it doesn't - don't read it. I know for sure reading other mother's thought processes on here has helped me think through issues and given me new perspectives.
debsey
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Queen6




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 21 2014, 7:48 pm
I don't think we need studies or articles or any proof to say that movie watching isn't good. Look at a child's face after he finished watching a video and compare it to the face of a child who just finished playing outdoors, playing with a game, baking...... Weather it's a half hour, 2 hours, once in a while, or every day.
Video watching gives kids that glazed deadbeat look that they won't have from any other activity.
Does anyone disagree?!?
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 21 2014, 8:36 pm
Queen6 wrote:
I don't think we need studies or articles or any proof to say that movie watching isn't good. Look at a child's face after he finished watching a video and compare it to the face of a child who just finished playing outdoors, playing with a game, baking...... Weather it's a half hour, 2 hours, once in a while, or every day.
Video watching gives kids that glazed deadbeat look that they won't have from any other activity.
Does anyone disagree?!?


Yes. I disagree.

But feel free to never allow your children access to television or movies.

Make sure they never see Star Wars, Casablanca, or Gone With the Wind ... or Sesame Street, The Wizard of Oz, or ET. That they never watch the Olympics, or see someone pitch a perfect game. Then you'll never see that "glazed deadbeat" look in their eyes when the world goes from black and white to color, or as they hold their breath wondering if he'll swing at the next pitch, or wondering if ET will be caught.

Remember, it doesn't matter if its even half an hour, once in a while. So no History Channel to watch Neil Armstrong take his fist step on the moon, or even YouTube to watch Abbott and Costello do "Who's on First." Your kids will get that deadbeat, glazed look. Although mine will have a look of wonder and awe.

In any case, I confess, I'm not a perfect parent like you. I've let him lay in my bed and watch TV all day when he's been sick. I even took him to see Toy Story 3 (I sobbed like a baby) and -- shockingly -- Gran Torino (Clint Eastwood reminded us both of my dad).

Oh, I'm sorry. I know you don't get any of those references in the past 10 years or more. Obviously, you would never expose yourself, either. Don't want to get that "glazed deadbeat" look.

Me, I'm perfectly content for my child to be exposed to all of that wonder. And, I confess, I indulge myself on occasion.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2014, 1:23 am
debsey wrote:
I do believe Disney movies are addictive. Not in the chemical sense, but in the sense that they are so enjoyable they are hard to stop watching. I'm using the word in the colloquial sense, not in the medical/legal sense.
The value effects would be hard to study, no? Values being so intrinsic to the eye of the beholder. There are plenty of pop-culture feminist explorations of Disney movie themes, or Christian, or aetheist, or name your cause celebre.
So I have to go with an "N" of one - me - and my kids - for me, the values are not mine, in 90% of the movies. and for the other 10%, I'm not willing to risk opening a door that will be hard to close.
My (perhaps unstated) point is that not all Charedi mothers who just say no! to videos are doing so in a knee-jerk, reflexive fashion. For many of us, a lot of thought goes in to those choices.
debsey


I think values would be hard to study, but not outcomes. They could study, for example, whether children who watch Disney romances end up either getting married after waiting decades for prince charming or getting divorced b/c of high expectations or if they later score lower on imagination measures or if they have higher levels of anxiety, etc.

I was under the impression that many chareidi parents refuse movies categorically, because of what their communities expect and what they assume about the outside world. Good to know I am wrong.
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2014, 12:21 pm
marina wrote:
I think values would be hard to study, but not outcomes. They could study, for example, whether children who watch Disney romances end up either getting married after waiting decades for prince charming or getting divorced b/c of high expectations or if they later score lower on imagination measures or if they have higher levels of anxiety, etc.

I was under the impression that many chareidi parents refuse movies categorically, because of what their communities expect and what they assume about the outside world. Good to know I am wrong.


How would you isolate the variables? This would make the assumption that Disney movies, and ONLY Disney movies had any impact on the child's development. The quality of the parent's marriage, educational opportunities, the child's own temperament, presence or absence of learning differences, IQ, SES, - you'd have to figure out how to control for all of those. LMK if you can, and if you'll share that formula with me, because we'd win the Nobel Prize for statistics for SURE! This would be impossible to actually study.
I'm sure some Charedi parents do refuse videos categorically. But many are like me - I'm FFB but my parents were from a different generation, and did not have a problem with movies and TV. I grew up with a lot of movies and there are certain ones that still tug at my heartstrings and that I'd like to share with my kids. Other new ones that sound good - I'd like to see myself/show to my kids. But I sat down and thought this out very carefully when my oldest was four, and I could have shown her certain pre-selected videos which would NOT raise eyebrows in my community (like clips of Clifford or Caillou or classic Sesame Street) and I made the decision that this is a door I don't want to open.
When my kids got older, I made the new rule about Jewish movies only in summer because I didn't want them to feel like I"m always saying No, and the "no" will then create a sense of temptation and forbidden fruit. So it's yes - sometimes - to some videos.
Why no videos during the school year? Because I do believe in the passive/active learning split. I've seen it in my professional work. Gemarah learning is mostly frontal lobes - lots of logic, lots of language loading - and I don't want my sons handicapped in any way.
I don't make a fuss about things like videos in doctor's waiting rooms. To me, that's going a bit far. But I can understand those who do.
On a case by case basis, I figure out what to do if let's say my daughter is at a sleepover and the mother brings out a DVD.
The one thing I HATE is when people stretch the rule. Like I have a neighbor who says "we only watch Jewish videos" and my kids were at her house, and she took out Tom and Jerry. She said to my kids "Tom and Jerry is "practically" Jewish. I don't like that. Tom and Jerry is unobjectionable. But it's NOT "practically Jewish." I have no problem with her showing Tom and Jerry to her kids, and I'm not gonna yank my kids home. But that kind of stretched rationalizing is a bit much for me. It's NOT Jewish. It's hardly going to poison your neshama. But it's not Jewish.
debsey
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2014, 2:22 pm
Quote:
How would you isolate the variables? This would make the assumption that Disney movies, and ONLY Disney movies had any impact on the child's development. The quality of the parent's marriage, educational opportunities, the child's own temperament, presence or absence of learning differences, IQ, SES, - you'd have to figure out how to control for all of those. LMK if you can, and if you'll share that formula with me, because we'd win the Nobel Prize for statistics for SURE! This would be impossible to actually study.


I'm pretty sure we don't have to isolate the variables. The statistical formulae have a way to adjust for these factors. Maybe some statistician can weigh in, but I think it's probably similar to any other study of one factor among many. Say some study finds that kids who watch 7 hours of TV a day are more likely to develop ADHD later... this study had to account for race, socioeconomic status, gender, diet, family issues, temperament, genetics, etc. Same with any study that purports to show a correlation between anything and IQ, etc.

It would, however, be more difficult to do the study so it doesn't fall along gender lines, b/c I think more girls tend to watch Disney.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2014, 2:24 pm
marina wrote:
Quote:
How would you isolate the variables? This would make the assumption that Disney movies, and ONLY Disney movies had any impact on the child's development. The quality of the parent's marriage, educational opportunities, the child's own temperament, presence or absence of learning differences, IQ, SES, - you'd have to figure out how to control for all of those. LMK if you can, and if you'll share that formula with me, because we'd win the Nobel Prize for statistics for SURE! This would be impossible to actually study.


I'm pretty sure we don't have to isolate the variables. The statistical formulae have a way to adjust for these factors. Maybe some statistician can weigh in, but I think it's probably similar to any other study of one factor among many. Say some study finds that kids who watch 7 hours of TV a day are more likely to develop ADHD later... this study had to account for race, socioeconomic status, gender, diet, family issues, temperament, genetics, etc.

I perform statistical analyse all the time as part of my job.
Of course you can isolate variables, assuming you have a varied enough sample pool.
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2014, 2:51 pm
DrMom wrote:
I perform statistical analyse all the time as part of my job.
Of course you can isolate variables, assuming you have a varied enough sample pool.


Me too. How would you draw a linear connection between something as major as success of marriage/life choices to a relatively minor variable like "watching Disney movies" when we know that there are so many factors that lead to success of marriage or life choices? I can't figure out how to isolate the variables. I mean, with an unlimited data set and an unlimited budget, sure. But realistically? Not gonna happen.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2014, 3:01 pm
debsey wrote:
Me too. How would you draw a linear connection between something as major as success of marriage/life choices to a relatively minor variable like "watching Disney movies" when we know that there are so many factors that lead to success of marriage or life choices? I can't figure out how to isolate the variables. I mean, with an unlimited data set and an unlimited budget, sure. But realistically? Not gonna happen.

Who said the connection would be linear? And I never said I could collect the data; only that IF someone collected the data, it is mathematically possible to separate out the various factors, if ther were enough combinations of the various parameters among your sample set. Of coures, one could always argue that more parameters need to be added to any give study. I'd imagine that the influence, if any, would be weak compared to other factors you mentioned.

Anyhow, such data is likely to be very messy and inexact. I'd assume that "cleaner" psychological studies are performed by having subjects with similar backgrounds watch various types of films and ask them questions about relationships and see how they answer. These types of psychological studies are useful for studying short-term influences, but not so much for long-term changes in attitudes.
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2014, 3:36 pm
DrMom wrote:
Who said the connection would be linear? And I never said I could collect the data; only that IF someone collected the data, it is mathematically possible to separate out the various factors, if ther were enough combinations of the various parameters among your sample set. Of coures, one could always argue that more parameters need to be added to any give study. I'd imagine that the influence, if any, would be weak compared to other factors you mentioned.

Anyhow, such data is likely to be very messy and inexact. I'd assume that "cleaner" psychological studies are performed by having subjects with similar backgrounds watch various types of films and ask them questions about relationships and see how they answer. These types of psychological studies are useful for studying short-term influences, but not so much for long-term changes in attitudes.


We agree, then! You are right, this is THEORETICALLY possible to model, given the right data set and the right budget.
Anyway, you know what they say about lies and statistics - the answer to the research "question" would already be in the mind of the researcher, in such a value-laden study as this.
Love your SN, btw.......
debsey
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flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2014, 4:37 pm
Going back to the original questions, no I don't go for the disney movies. I don't like them.
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allrgymama




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2014, 6:30 pm
To answer the question, I really hope that I will be able to stand strong and not allow my kids to watch these sort of things except on the very rare occasion.

Personally, I grew up watching pretty much everything. Looking back now, I question my parents as to why they allowed to us to watch certain things when we did. True, my understanding of certain things went straight over my head (watching Spaceballs as an 11 year old is a vastly different experience than watching it at 27), but it all contributed to a certain jaded attitude about different things in the world. I'm really trying to sensitize myself again to things like violence.*

So the idea of my five year old watching The Little Mermaid and NOT being bothered when Prince Eric drives a ship into Ursula and impales her upon the mast bothers ME tremendously. Similarly, the first time I watched The Incredibles (as a teenager), I didn't even register that someone tries to commit suicide in the first ten minutes -- I was amazed to see it while watching over my niece and nephews' shoulders; they didn't even blink. I think these concepts should be scary to five year olds. And I think the subversiveness of so many concepts is also a problem -- if she's watching these things, I want her to be mature and old enough to realize that most princesses look a certain way or act a certain way and that these things are problematic. Rather than just accepting them as par for the course because it didn't occur to her to bothered when she was five.

I also get uncomfortable with her seeing people dressed provocatively or kissing -- I'd like to introduce these concepts to her when they're appropriate and she's mature enough to understand them.

To date, we've pretty much restricted it to Disney Jr type stuff, and I try to stick more to Mickey Mouse Clubhouse and Dora the Explorer type of shows -- things that teach crucial skills (math, science, pattern recognition, early literacy, colors, shapes, logic, etc) and stay away from things like Jake and the Neverland Pirates and Sophia the First (which mostly aim for simple story telling or social skills and my daughter can learn lessons about middos in much better places).

That being said, we do listen to a lot of the Disney songs as they expose her to music genres and vocabulary that she wouldn't otherwise be exposed to. When she asks for context on a story, I try to explain things while making a lesson out of it. So after the whole village sings about Belle and how Gaston wants to marry her, we discuss how silly it is to want to marry someone only because they're beautiful.

Finally, this is something that my family doesn't understand at all (or, they understand it, but think resistance is futile). So, off the top of my head, she's seen Hercules at my parents' house (like, of all the ones, it had to be the one with false Gods and Idolatry), a Tinkerbell movie by my sister and some parts of Frozen. I think that's it.

*I do want to say though, that these things shaped me for better and for worse as a person. My sense of humor, my interests, my views on the world. It certainly extended into my love for writing and critical thinking -- my father used to complain over why I felt the need to verbally edit every plot hole as we watched something. So Barbara's post speaks to me a lot, but you have to weigh the pros and cons very seriously.
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