Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Hobbies, Crafts, and Collections -> Reading Room
Mishpacha -p23 - Can You Afford this Shidduch?
  Previous  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 10:54 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Wow. How many kids are in school? What do you do with the ones not in school? How do you come up with the money for all of the unexpected or occasional large expenses, like repairs, yom tov, etc? Does your mortgage include taxes and homeowner's insurance?


Thanks MBV for your interest, I am good with numbers and I am the one in charge of my family's finances,so I am pretty sure I have not forgotten anything. The tuiton figure is for one high schooler, one in nursery and three in the middle. the schools are very understanding as I said becasue we both work in the school system even though we dont work in teh schools tht we send our kids to. So Yomtov, we shop carefully , cook simply, we just live simply altogehter. homemade food is cheaper than storebought, I carefully look out for sales and then stock up, I try to coupon sometimes but dont go crzy with it..
the mortgage includes homeowners insurance and taxes. BH our taxes are not so high in our county. we specially chose our home in this county as opposed to the next county where tons of other frum people live, and taxes are literally double over there.

biggest problem is unexpected expenses.... worst comes to the worst we have a line of credit home equity loan that we have tapped into on occasion, but paid off over a year or two at most BH. Right now we owe nothing except our mortgage, no line of equity and no credit card debt bli ayin hara, adn davening that it will stay that way.
Back to top

MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 10:57 pm
Honestly your living expenses sound so much like mine, but my childcare and tuition costs are staggering compared to yours. The schools are not just understanding in your case, they're practically giving you a full scholarship Smile
Back to top

amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 11:05 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Honestly your living expenses sound so much like mine, but my childcare and tuition costs are staggering compared to yours. The schools are not just understanding in your case, they're practically giving you a full scholarship Smile


I dont know where you live of course, but no this is not practically a full scholarship.. we are paying about 35% of full tuition. and it is clear to the schools that on our income we cant really pay much more. I wish I could teach teh schools more about being frugal btw, lots of stuff they do and spend on I wish they didnt...

so yeah, I guess you are right, it is not ideal for a family of 7 to be living on $5500 a month, but it is doable when the schools are undestanding. As you can see from my breakdown in my previous post, if our kids were in public school we would be on easy street financially! we orthodox jews pay way more in tuition, than we do in mortgage!
Back to top

amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 11:07 pm
imamother, thanks for the post - I really appreciate it. It makes me feel a lot better - many of my non-negotiable expenses are much more than yours (ie, I'm lucky to have "only" a 1300/month rent for an above-ground apartment, and there's no cheaper health insurance in NJ below $800/month, and our cellphones cost hundreds even to cancel)... we also don't have any WIC or tuition reductions, so I suppose that's something.

Still, I'm amazed you manage to balance groceries and other necessities at approx $300/week. I buy almost nothing processed aside from melba toast, dairy, chummus and tahini (our guests refuse to eat the homemade version I make), and still a 250/week grocery bill is the norm. And that includes clothes?!?!?!? Wow. Kol Hakavod lach.

I still am flabbergasted, though. Don't you find that an official budget gets overrun by emergencies all the time? For instance - a doctor's visit overran last week, causing me to miss my next appointment - bam, $200 cancellation fee... sometimes I feel like I am bleeding money no matter how hard I try not to spend a cent.
Back to top

MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 11:10 pm
Yeah, I realized after I posted that tuition may not be as much as I assumed Wink And the truth is that living where you do, with such a low cost of living and flexible tuition, managing on 5500/month is very feasible.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 11:13 pm
amother wrote:
imamother, thanks for the post - I really appreciate it. It makes me feel a lot better - many of my non-negotiable expenses are much more than yours (ie, I'm lucky to have "only" a 1300/month rent for an above-ground apartment, and there's no cheaper health insurance in NJ below $800/month, and our cellphones cost hundreds even to cancel)... we also don't have any WIC or tuition reductions, so I suppose that's something.

Still, I'm amazed you manage to balance groceries and other necessities at approx $300/week. I buy almost nothing processed aside from melba toast, dairy, chummus and tahini (our guests refuse to eat the homemade version I make), and still a 250/week grocery bill is the norm. And that includes clothes?!?!?!? Wow. Kol Hakavod lach.

I still am flabbergasted, though. Don't you find that an official budget gets overrun by emergencies all the time? For instance - a doctor's visit overran last week, causing me to miss my next appointment - bam, $200 cancellation fee... sometimes I feel like I am bleeding money no matter how hard I try not to spend a cent.


wow I feel so bad for you about that cancellation fee , that is a very steep fee! yes, emergencies do arise and it can be stressful, but at that point we try to remember that all we can do is our hishtadlus, if Hashem doesnt want it to work that way then He will make sure to put a spoke in the wheels. one thing I do find hard is feeling like we cant afford extras like I dont get any subscriptions. Right now I am getting my neighbors's binah magazine evey week when she is finished with it, the only thing is I have to wait too long to read my favorite serial, cant remember what it is called, the historical one by Etka Gitel Schwartz... oh well, that is life.

yes, groceries, I spend really carefully, it is harder in the summer when the kids are home and they seem to eat more. Home baked goods taste good and are much cheaper to make than to buy. seasonal fruit is not always as cheap as you would think,but I hate to limit fruit and veg for the chldren.

Thanks for the encouragement!
Back to top

amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 11:18 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Yeah, I realized after I posted that tuition may not be as much as I assumed Wink And the truth is that living where you do, with such a low cost of living and flexible tuition, managing on 5500/month is very feasible.


MBV, I think that one of the main reasons that we can make it work is becasue we live simply, both dh and I grew up living simply adn are happy with it. I just keep hoping that we will be able to help our kids always be satisfied with a simple style of life, I think we are doing htem a favor honestly, just like our parents did for us. And btw, I never felt deprived. If I every wanted somehing as a teeenager that my paretns said no to for financial reasons, I babysat until I earned enough to pay for it. My high schooler ( a boy) has started to babysit occasionally, also cuts lawns, clears snow, enough for a little bit of pocket money. and he doesn t mind doing it.

BH, part of the reason why we chose to settle in our current city over ten years ago was becasue the cost of living was not so high, property was not so bad etc.
Back to top

Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 2:37 am
amother wrote:
okay, I will try to do it for you!

mortgage- 1120 (we are lucky I guess that the mortgage on our 4 bedroom house is quite low, we bought it at a cheap time with a great interest rate BH Smile
gas/electric - 210
car insurance-145
medical insurance premuiums - 645
dental premiums- 58
life insurance- 74
water - 15 (BH very low, we are lucky)
phone and internet and cellphone- 108
tuition - 1800
Total of the above = approx 4175

Remaining approx $1225 we spend on credit cards for groceries, toiletries, very basic clothing, medical out of pocket expenses, BH not too much. Also tzedaka. we have been told to use maaser for our sons tuition. We get WIC which is worth about $90 a month too. and before anyone bashes me for taking benefits, we are both educated people working full or almost full time in low paying education jobs.
we cannot afford to take vacations unless we save up airmiles and hotelpoints credit cards, ie a very small vacation every three to four years.

During hte summer we send to camp for only one session because it is so expensive. not easy , but doable but then again, in the summer we do not have tuition to pay. I dont work when the kids are home, which is okay because I am an educatior.

Yes, it is not always smooth sailing, and the hardest thing is when we have to save a little to make a simcha BH or when an appliance or one of hte cars needs repariing or replacing.
I should also mention that we get a tax refund every year of about $4000, that we usually use for fixing up problems in the house.

Honestly, I would love to be earning more and living without tightening our belts all the time, but hey, that's life, and unless dh or I retrain in a more lucrative profession, then this is our status quo. BH the schools understand, because they know how much (or rahter how poorly) teachers are paid and they reduce our tuiton accordingly generously.


But this isn't really an example of how to do it, as you've said you're getting some form of government support and also reduced tuition. Not that it isn't great for you, but you can't post this as a model of how to manage on a small budget, because you're being supported by those who fund tuition breaks.
Back to top

newme




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 9:56 am
I am posting on this thread for the first time.
As someone whose husband has been learning/teaching for decades I think the line of reasoning many of the previous posters have displayed is a little skewed.
You are all talking about parnasah as if it is an exact science.
Yes - when you crunch the numbers and look at the facts they don't add up.
And yes, women looking to support a husband in learning without having a decent paying profession, while raising kids and many of them, are being extremely idealistic.
But who said that living a life in Kodesh makes practical sense?
I doubt it ever has. It definitely has never been easy for us, and when we look at our finances they don't make sense.
We have zero security, we are in debt and we have no idea what we are going to for retirement (may we live that long).
We live on our belief. It's as simple as that.

When I was younger there were many nisyonos. I have since tried to learn a bit about emunah and bitachon (both by reading, and through life experience) and I still try to gain ongoing chizuk.
We have no complaints to the ribbono shel olam and we see a huge amount of s'yata d'shmaya,

There have been times when we received outside assistance - sometimes from parents, sometimes from others, but most of this came unsolicited, and never with a feeling of entitlement. Our parnassah comes from Hashem, and sometimes He sends it to us through messengers that are close to us. The way we see it they have chosen to gain the mitzvah.
I still daven daily that our parnassah should come directly from His hands.

B'H. I feel hugely privileged to have a husband who can still learn, and I make absolutely no judgement ch"v, against anyone who has chosen to live differently. Am Yisrael always had workers and learners.
Having said this, I have a growing dismay when I read so many posts that are basically disparaging the kollel paradigm when it is still something many Jews aspire to.

I am writing this post to point out that any attempt to portray a kollel lifestyle in a way that makes sense is probably doomed from the start. Of course it doesn't make sense. It doesn't have to.
When sick people recover against all odds - does anyone wonder how taht happened?
When miracles happen in other realms of our life - does anyone think the ones on the receiving end did something wrong?

To the extent that one develops a firm belief that Hashem is the one who provides - and I mean IRON belief (I'm still a work in progress...) - to that extent one can reduce his natural effort to sustain himself and rely on Hashem to reveal his direct Hashgacha and trust me, Hashem provides in ways that are beyond the accepted laws of economic stability.

If anything is the problem with today's paradigm - besides for one issue that Rabbi Eisenstark pointed out (yes, I have read the article) of too much materialism, then it is the lack of bitachon on display in our posts. We need to sharpen our vision. We need to believe that Hashem sends Parnassah - and I am saying this to EVERYONE, not just women who are supporting husbands in Kollel.

As to the premise that opened this thread -
IN direct correlation to what I have just written, we have raised our children to believe that their parnassah is not dependant on their future in-laws bank accounts. Just as any healthy Hishtadlus should not come at the expense of other halachic obligations (no one would dream of robbing a bank in order to sit and learn without worries....!!!) so, too, one cannot demand anything from people who have nothing to give. One can - and some do - limit their shidduch pool to people who are offering to support m'lchatchila (I.e. wealthy people who do so willingly), but if someone is on a higher level of bitachon that won't be his main concern. From experience with distant family members - money comes and money goes. Marrying into a wealthy family is no insurance for years of support, and if one truly wishes to sit and learn the motivation and bitachon must come from within or else at the first sign of financial insecurity their dreams will come crashing down.
On the contrary - marrying into a simple family may be a plus, as the girl will not be accustomed to luxuries.

Just my two cents.
Back to top

Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 10:02 am
Whenever anyone posts the way money works for them, there is invariably some comment dismissing it, that it's invalid for one reason or another.

Realize that these things are very individual. There is nothing wrong with someone in an education job who gets low pay to do a service for the community to get $90/month on WIC. Or tuition breaks.

There is nothing wrong with people who have cheaper rent or mortgage or tuition based on where they live. No one ever says their budget should and can be copied by everyone. It's just an illustration of what works for them.

And what newme said is very true -- when we start cheshboning every penny that comes in, it doesn't seem to work. But it always does. Even if it's for a reason that other posters dismiss "Oh, you can't rely on your utilities giving a credit that month" (BTDT) -- of course we can't. We can rely on HKB"H and within resason realize our hishtadlus will match our need.

I don't know how, and I can't articulate it, but it's possible to live on less than it works on paper. Somehow.
Back to top

sky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 10:19 am
Frumdoc wrote:
But this isn't really an example of how to do it, as you've said you're getting some form of government support and also reduced tuition. Not that it isn't great for you, but you can't post this as a model of how to manage on a small budget, because you're being supported by those who fund tuition breaks.


they are both in education. I believe that parents in education deserve tuition breaks. They could get hire paying jobs but instead are getting paid less for one of the most important jobs out there. If anyone should be getting tuition breaks I think it should be then.
Back to top

amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 11:30 am
Deleted.
Back to top

saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 11:37 am
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:
Whenever anyone posts the way money works for them, there is invariably some comment dismissing it, that it's invalid for one reason or another.

Realize that these things are very individual. There is nothing wrong with someone in an education job who gets low pay to do a service for the community to get $90/month on WIC. Or tuition breaks.

There is nothing wrong with people who have cheaper rent or mortgage or tuition based on where they live. No one ever says their budget should and can be copied by everyone. It's just an illustration of what works for them.

And what newme said is very true -- when we start cheshboning every penny that comes in, it doesn't seem to work. But it always does. Even if it's for a reason that other posters dismiss "Oh, you can't rely on your utilities giving a credit that month" (BTDT) -- of course we can't. We can rely on HKB"H and within resason realize our hishtadlus will match our need.

I don't know how, and I can't articulate it, but it's possible to live on less than it works on paper. Somehow.


If you say you are making it on your own, it should be expected that it means not taking government programs or tzedaka (in this case tuition payments). That's fine if that's how a person chooses to live, but its not paying all your bills. Living off tzedaka is not "making it." Its a big distinction.

If at the end fo the year, the money you spent is more than the money you took in, then you will be in debt. That's not a kollel thing. Most of the people I know who say things work out, usually get handouts of some kind that end up covering the difference.
Back to top

June




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 11:48 am
amother wrote:
When my sibs entered shidduchim we sat them down and told them that even living simply in Lakewood (where many things are cheaper) and having no kids, you cannot survive on less than 3-4K a month WITHOUT SPENDING ON ANYTHING!!!!!! OTHER THAN BILLS AND SURVIVAL. (This does not include stockings, Kleenex, or emergencies.) By the time you have pre-tuition kids, that soars up to 8K. Once you're paying tuition you have to realize that you've got to be aiming for 150-200K to SURVIVE, unless you plan on using tzeddaka funds or others' funds (and in this I include the government.)


whaaat?? 3-4K a month pre-kids??

we lived very well in Lakewood as newlyweds with 2K a month. we lived simply, but not majorly frugal. your numbers seem very inflated.

I know rents have gone up a lot in the year since we left, but they can't have gone up THAT much. if people live how you describe later in your post, and don't have kids yet, they should easily be able to live on 2K.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 12:00 pm
June wrote:
whaaat?? 3-4K a month pre-kids??

we lived very well in Lakewood as newlyweds with 2K a month. we lived simply, but not majorly frugal. your numbers seem very inflated.

I know rents have gone up a lot in the year since we left, but they can't have gone up THAT much. if people live how you describe later in your post, and don't have kids yet, they should easily be able to live on 2K.


Actually, rents are now $1200 a month for a basement, plus health insurance premiums. So it costs $2k even before car or anything else.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 12:10 pm
I don't understand this. We live in a place MORE expensive than Lakewood.

Dh makes about 5,500/month

We have two cars
Rent an apartment (for 1775 including utilities)
Pay for our own food (don't qualify for wic or food stamps)
Pay for our own cells
Pay for pretty much everything (including playgroup for 2 children)

We receive NO parental support at all and live WELL above the minimum I would expect a kollel family to. Tuition alone adds to 950/month. So I just don't get how a family without kids needs 4000/month.

They will get food stamps. So very little food cost, Medicaid or very cheap medical care....

How can a couple NOT live cheaper?
Back to top

sky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 12:23 pm
amother wrote:
Actually, rents are now $1200 a month for a basement, plus health insurance premiums. So it costs $2k even before car or anything else.

In a new house, with 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms or down the block from yeshiva. If someone is willing to live in a building or an older smaller apt or further from yeshiva when starting out it can be much cheaper.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 12:27 pm
amother wrote:
My father learned in Kollel. BUT, he got married at a local Yeshiva.
My parents' friends also got married at local Yeshivas.
I have a friend who came from a Choshuva family, and also got married at a local Yeshiva.

The reason my dh has a friend who is a Rebbe who asks for money is because of the extravagant Chasunas.

If you want to support in learning, I understand. If you want your kids to learn, I understand. But why do you have to make weddings so extravagant?

My brothers' friends had cheap Bar Mitvas. They had a breakfast for their friends with bagels and lox.

A kiddush in shul costs a small fortune.

What you see nowadays is people who embrace the Kollel lifestyle but expect weddings and Bar Mitzvas like every working family. And then that's when they come around asking for money.

If you don't have $20k in the bank, you should not make that kind of a wedding.


I don't know if it's the $10K package Bais Faiga a few years ago, don't know what it is now, that's breaking the bank but the support afterward.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 12:37 pm
I'm the amother who posted the 3-4K pre-kids -

we lived in yenem eck (in the middle of nowhere), with our only qualification that we needed an aboveground apartment (I can't do basements for health reasons).
We had one (third or fourth hand) car, a one-bedroom for 1K and glad for it - took nothing from the government (both by choice and by not qualifying), and tried not to take from my inlaws who can't afford it. We didn't do vacation, only went out to eat when I was sobbing with exhaustion and needed to reconnect with DH, and lived as simply as we possibly could. But:

insurance (700-900 I believe then)
medical expenses (deductible minimum 3000)
car insurance
car repairs (third-hand car, remember?)
gas
groceries
electric, gas, water
setting up house with secondhand furniture
basic necessities re: clothing...
TAXES cost a fortune. Nowadays because I'm self employed I pay full 15% social security plus local taxes. We have to save 1K/month to prepare for tax season too!!!!

we also had a lot of medical expenses. A LOT. And don't tell me you can expect for it not happen - even just having a healthy normal baby means a deductible (I usually finish paying off one kid by the time I am fortunate enough to have another, G-d willing - and before anyone jumps on me for 'having kids too close together', this is my choice - I got married late and desperately want to have as many kids as G-d will give me in a healthy and happy way.)
Back to top

SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 1:50 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Honestly your living expenses sound so much like mine, but my childcare and tuition costs are staggering compared to yours. The schools are not just understanding in your case, they're practically giving you a full scholarship Smile


I just did an interesting experiment and took our previous year's spending, removed taxes paid which a family of 7 at that income level would not pay and in fact would get back more than they paid in the form of the earned income tax credit, and removed our very high tuition and too little tzedakah giving and replaced it with a minimum tuition of 3K per kid and my living expenses (not the details, but the overall expenses) were at just below 6K for a slightly smaller family.

And with that number I was still able to keep our modest yet overpriced home with its large tax bill that would be reduced by the country for a lower income family with no significant savings. And I was still able to pay for our too high utilities and keep the extracurricular and family fun budget.

All this goes to show is that for families that are doing better there are two main driving costs: tuition and taxes. This is really something to think about if you believe, as I do, that the day is coming where tuition scholarships will be completely restructured.

The thing is, to keep a lot of the expenses low, you have to put down that downpayment or buy that reliable used car with straight up cash or pay. If you lack the cash, everything will cost more. I'm buying 25 or 30 pastas at a time when they are super cheap. You can't do that without money.

Everyone should take notes and ideas from others budgets, but it really is hard to compare and declare a 5.5K budget doable when there are a lot of other factors at play.
Back to top
Page 6 of 8   Previous  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Hobbies, Crafts, and Collections -> Reading Room

Related Topics Replies Last Post
I want to uncover because I can’t afford wigs!
by amother
93 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 7:45 pm View last post
Mishpacha Double Take
by amother
58 Mon, Mar 25 2024, 5:37 pm View last post
Photographer who does shidduch pics
by amother
2 Thu, Mar 21 2024, 7:41 pm View last post
New to Mishpacha, catch me up
by amother
94 Wed, Mar 20 2024, 4:56 pm View last post
Kids want but I can’t afford
by amother
231 Wed, Mar 20 2024, 6:29 am View last post