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P3 agency ripoff



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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 8:25 pm
The past few years Ive worked as a p3 provider in a well known brooklyn high school. I was fortunate enough to go directly thru the board of ed and not thru an agency. I had a very good case load. My principal called me yesterday and informed me that she would love to have me back, but the dean of the school is insisting that I go thru a particular agency. I spoke with the dean today and she will not budge an inch. She admitted (without going into any details) that the school will have a financial benefit by giving all the cases to the agency. The agency will take about 30% of my salary while I'm doing the exact same work. I know many people in this business that work for agencies as they control the overwhelming majority of the cases. Are people angry about this or has everybody gotten used to it. It seems like such a ripoff!
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 10:16 pm
I refuse to work for most agencies for exactly this reason. I think it is extremely slimy for the agency to give the school a financial benefit at the expense of paying their teachers fairly. I wonder if that's even legal or they're doing it under the table. I think it's also unkind of the school to take that deal so firmly at your expense but I guess they have to do what makes sense for them Exploding anger I'm sorry you're going through this.

I wonder if you could try negotiating with the agency for a better rate, especially if the principal can stick up for you.

My personal feeling is that nobody should agree to work for the ripoff agencies (there are some decent agencies. I am specifically referring to the ones who take disproportionate cuts and/or don't provide any benefits to offset it - such as a significant reduction of paperwork or more reliable pay schedule) because they mess up the market for all of us. Unfortunately we don't have a union making this happen, so as long as there are enough suckers out there, these people will keep eating up many of the cases.

People out there, if you're reading this: Don't work for less than you're worth!
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mummiedearest




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 10:19 pm
talk to a rav and take the high school to bias din if you have a case against them.
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Ashrei




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 10:22 pm
This affects the kids too. DD got an awful P4 last year, and the school wouldn't let me bring in my own. They had to 'hire' them or something.... I wasn't clear on the details. And OP, all the kids who are counting on you for next year could be out of luck and get someone grossly unqualified in case you find a better situation...
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 10:23 pm
Can you clarify? What benefit is the school getting?
Is the agency actually giving the school money?
confused.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 10:25 pm
Sad

I also recently had something come up at work that was so obviously wrong it was clearly min hashamayim. I comforted myself with that initially, but I am negotiating as well and plan to take preliminary steps toward din Torah if they are not amenable.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 10:31 pm
Ashrei wrote:
This affects the kids too. DD got an awful P4 last year, and the school wouldn't let me bring in my own. They had to 'hire' them or something.... I wasn't clear on the details. And OP, all the kids who are counting on you for next year could be out of luck and get someone grossly unqualified in case you find a better situation...

Sorry, in this instance I'm with the school. They have a right to decide who works within their program. You can always opt out of their "awful" P4 and get your own provider at home (yes, I know this is easier said than done.) You can talk to the school about your issues with the quality of their in-house provider. But I absolutely understand why they want to only have their own people in their school. It can become a real balagan if they allow random people's random providers to come and go at will.
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goforit




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2014, 10:32 pm
I am looking for a p3 provider and don't have to go threw any agency. This is for a 8 yr old boy. I prefer a chassish man. But would consider a female. You can pm your resume. I am approved for 5 hours a week.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jul 25 2014, 12:34 pm
op here. If u google the words "agudas yisroel p3 provider" u will find an article from 2007 when the agudas yisroel negotiated with the the board of ed, to structure the pay for p3 providers to be determined by how large a group the provider is working with. Prior to this, a provider would only be able to work with 1 child at a time and get receive around $40 for the session. The reason the agudah negotiated was to encourage people and give them an incentive to go into this field. Unfortunately, this created a fantastic opportunity for agencies to circumvent the intention of the new rule and gobble up hundreds (thousands?) of cases. The reason why the agencies can get away with this is for 1 of 2 reasons. In some cases the agency is giving the school a cutback and in many cases it simply makes it SLIGHTLY easier for the school to go thru an agency. What I mean by that is (as a principal explained to me) If a school needs 3 providers, instead of having to put an ad in the paper and try to find them, they simply call the agency. My response to that is that when u consider all the people that work in the school from the morahs, teachers, assistants, maintenance, principals, assistant principals, janitors and others, would it be that much to ask to hire a couple p3's as well and not take a short cut and go thru an agency that will cost us 30% of our salary.
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goforit




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 25 2014, 12:53 pm
amother wrote:
op here. If u google the words "agudas yisroel p3 provider" u will find an article from 2007 when the agudas yisroel negotiated with the the board of ed, to structure the pay for p3 providers to be determined by how large a group the provider is working with. Prior to this, a provider would only be able to work with 1 child at a time and get receive around $40 for the session. The reason the agudah negotiated was to encourage people and give them an incentive to go into this field. Unfortunately, this created a fantastic opportunity for agencies to circumvent the intention of the new rule and gobble up hundreds (thousands?) of cases. The reason why the agencies can get away with this is for 1 of 2 reasons. In some cases the agency is giving the school a cutback and in many cases it simply makes it SLIGHTLY easier for the school to go thru an agency. What I mean by that is (as a principal explained to me) If a school needs 3 providers, instead of having to put an ad in the paper and try to find them, they simply call the agency. My response to that is that when u consider all the people that work in the school from the morahs, teachers, assistants, maintenance, principals, assistant principals, janitors and others, would it be that much to ask to hire a couple p3's as well and not take a short cut and go thru an agency that will cost us 30% of our salary.


May I suggest you call Mrs. leah Steinberg from augdah and let her know what is happening? She would be very upset and maybe can work with the boe for a way to stop it.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 25 2014, 1:20 pm
amother wrote:
op here. If u google the words "agudas yisroel p3 provider" u will find an article from 2007 when the agudas yisroel negotiated with the the board of ed, to structure the pay for p3 providers to be determined by how large a group the provider is working with. Prior to this, a provider would only be able to work with 1 child at a time and get receive around $40 for the session. The reason the agudah negotiated was to encourage people and give them an incentive to go into this field. Unfortunately, this created a fantastic opportunity for agencies to circumvent the intention of the new rule and gobble up hundreds (thousands?) of cases. The reason why the agencies can get away with this is for 1 of 2 reasons. In some cases the agency is giving the school a cutback and in many cases it simply makes it SLIGHTLY easier for the school to go thru an agency. What I mean by that is (as a principal explained to me) If a school needs 3 providers, instead of having to put an ad in the paper and try to find them, they simply call the agency. My response to that is that when u consider all the people that work in the school from the morahs, teachers, assistants, maintenance, principals, assistant principals, janitors and others, would it be that much to ask to hire a couple p3's as well and not take a short cut and go thru an agency that will cost us 30% of our salary.

I think it is legitimate for a school to go through an agency because it is EASIER for them. That's what the agencies are for. Same reason people would work for an agency, because it is EASIER than having to cobble together your own caseload, deal with the DOE approvals and billing, etc. If it's easier for a school because the agency will take care of all the hiring and paperwork, that's fair.

However, I can't see how it is fair and I wonder if it is legal for the agencies to pay the schools to put them in charge. It sounds like buying and selling DOE cases. Total corruption. And this money is coming right out of the providers' pockets, for the agency's profit.

I don't understand how the change in rates gave the agencies any greater opportunity, though. Providers know that they should be getting paid more for larger groups, and if agencies are pocketing the difference we should NOT put up with it. I hung up the phone mid-interview more than once with agencies that offered the same rate for a maximum size group. (I did once choose to work for an agency that took only a minimal cut, while dealing with ALL paperwork and liasing with the school and paid me as an employee so the cut they took was made up for completely by what I saved on self-employment taxes. THAT is the way it should be.)

The ability to group was not to encourage more people to go into this field; it was to get services to more kids. We have a definite supply and demand problem here. There aren't enough hours in the day for the available professionals to help all the kids in need of services.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 25 2014, 1:22 pm
goforit wrote:
May I suggest you call Mrs. leah Steinberg from augdah and let her know what is happening? She would be very upset and maybe can work with the boe for a way to stop it.

I will call her. I think there need to be rules about "buying" cases (e.g. giving schools a kickback for hiring an agency. There are already clauses on the P4 contract saying that independent providers can't give or take anything extra from clients; this should apply to agencies as well and should include giving or taking from third parties such as schools, and they should crack down on enforcement) And additionally there should be a rule about what direct providers get paid, though I don't know how this could be worked out legally (unlike the previous request, which is a conflict of interest type issue I think)
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runninglate




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 25 2014, 2:40 pm
seeker wrote:
Sorry, in this instance I'm with the school. They have a right to decide who works within their program. You can always opt out of their "awful" P4 and get your own provider at home (yes, I know this is easier said than done.) You can talk to the school about your issues with the quality of their in-house provider. But I absolutely understand why they want to only have their own people in their school. It can become a real balagan if they allow random people's random providers to come and go at will.
Yeah, but the problem is when the school wants to make money by using an agency, or making their own agency, and the kids lose out, because the people willing to work for these wages are not the most qualified or experienced, or single girls who leave in middle of the year when they get engaged..... So the schools gain and the students lose.
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kb




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 25 2014, 2:44 pm
Would the parents of the children you worked with this year be able to do anything for you? Complain to the school? Hire you private?
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 25 2014, 2:58 pm
runninglate wrote:
Yeah, but the problem is when the school wants to make money by using an agency, or making their own agency, and the kids lose out, because the people willing to work for these wages are not the most qualified or experienced, or single girls who leave in middle of the year when they get engaged..... So the schools gain and the students lose.

I already expressed my opinion about schools getting money from using an agency... but the complaint was that the school only wants to use people they hire, which to me doesn't indicate necessarily that they're getting anything out of it. Just looking for some control, which is necessary when you're running an institution - you simply can't have random people popping in and out to service different kids in the midst of your program's schedule/space/culture. The person I was responding to didn't say whether her child's school is using an agency or simply wants to choose who's working in their school, and did not specify whether the agency (if there is one) is underpaying.

Nobody in Brooklyn is going to pay privately for what they were getting by P4, but it is a good idea to have the parents stick up for you with the school.
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browser




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 25 2014, 3:05 pm
op- I have been in the same situation and I even spoke to a school who wanted to act as an agency-they take off a cut from the p3 providers in their school
crazy!
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runninglate




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 25 2014, 4:27 pm
seeker wrote:
I already expressed my opinion about schools getting money from using an agency... but the complaint was that the school only wants to use people they hire, which to me doesn't indicate necessarily that they're getting anything out of it. Just looking for some control, which is necessary when you're running an institution - you simply can't have random people popping in and out to service different kids in the midst of your program's schedule/space/culture. The person I was responding to didn't say whether her child's school is using an agency or simply wants to choose who's working in their school, and did not specify whether the agency (if there is one) is underpaying.

Nobody in Brooklyn is going to pay privately for what they were getting by P4, but it is a good idea to have the parents stick up for you with the school.
I dont think we're disagreeing here. I have no problem wirh a principal requiring all providers to meet him/her etc. I was just pointing out that the providers are not the only ones losing out. In many cases, the students are too.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Jul 27 2014, 1:25 am
OP again....In a typical situation, when a person that gets a job thru a headhunter/agency, it is the employer that pays the agency (in my example, the school) and not the employee. Also, the p3 provider has to give up app. 30% of her salary year after year as opposed to an employee that is placed in a company by a headhunter and the company will pay a one time fee. ( think its 1 months salary but I could be wrong) I did call mrs. Steinberg at the agudas yisroel, and while she is incredibly sympathetic and understanding, she is unable to help.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 27 2014, 1:36 am
Example is not totally relevant, as the school is not the employer, the agency is the employer. The agency is possibly paying the school for allowing them to operate within their facility. Hard to argue with that, though really it is a stinky tactic to gobble up cases. While Agudah can't do anything about your job in your school at this moment, I wonder if they or someone can advocate for rules that will better protect both students and providers by limiting this type of manipulation. It'll be a stretch, though, and much more ideal if professionals would just stick up for their rights and NOT accept underpaying jobs. If the agencies are unable to cover their cases because providers refuse to work for peanuts, they will learn really fast. Unfortunately, people need jobs, so many won't be able to tough it out like that. When I tell agencies I won't work at their rates, they're like "OK bye we have enough other desperate suckers" And then I hang up and remind myself that my income is from G-d and I don't need to be anyone's shmatta.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Jul 27 2014, 2:43 pm
A school I know I used to send to used unqualified providers. I expressed surprise at how young my daughter's teacher was. I also thought it was great that she was getting paid so well. This girl graduated HS the June before and told me she was only getting one third of the fee. She was inept at what she did.

Certain parents (and one grandmother) at the school were required to work and provide services and ALL their salary went to the school towards their tuition bill. There was no taxes paid on this. They tried to get me to do this. I refused. I volunteered as a substitute teacher there and they saw they could get more out of me by having me direct my pay to the school.

Anonymous because if the info that my daughter qualified for services.
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