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cookiecutter
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 Mon, Jul 28 2014, 7:17 am
I HATE when people tell me that they went into a store and asked the salesperson what is normal. It's the worst when you are buying something like kallah jewelry and everything is four times as big as what you got two years ago and eight times more expensive, but they tell you that this is what "people are buying" and "the price of gold went up". (It did. and then it went back down about 30% since 2011. Are you paying 30% less?) First of all, it shouldn't matter what people are buying. But even if it did, why in the world do you trust the people who are selling it to you to tell you?
Same thing for these "helpful" articles in which waiters tell you what to tip, or lawyers tell you whether a tip is customary. What do you think they are going to say?
Same thing for tefillin/mezuzot. You are basically asking the sofer to tell you how frum you ought to be, in his opinion. I will concede that if you do it for jewelry, you should be OBLIGATED to do it for mezuzot.
The ultimate outcome of all of this is that it makes it worse for the average person. The rising tide lifts all boats. It used to be that you tipped for good service; now if you don't give 20% after a terrible experience you are evil. It used to be that kallahs got a ring. A RING! And now, thanks to the morons who ask "what is normal" it is normal to get rings, bracelets, necklaces, earrings, belly rings, and a gold yerushalayim crown. It used to be that you went to the sofer and got the middle of the road mezuza, unless you were a rabbinic family. Now, you just buy a megilla for $1000 and staple it to your doorpost.
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 7:32 am
It is not the salespeople who are to blame, it is the conspicuous consumption in our society. The consumerism is run amoke.
Sometimes it is not about the mitzvahs but showing off your devotion. Why the competition about the esrogim? If it is for Hashem do it privately.
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cookiecutter
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 7:36 am
| Squishy wrote: | It is not the salespeople who are to blame, it is the conspicuous consumption in our society. The consumerism is run amoke.
Sometimes it is not about the mitzvahs but showing off your devotion. Why the competition about the esrogim? If it is for Hashem do it privately. | I'm not blaming the salespeople. Of course they are aware of the benefits of their better products. I'm blaming the customers for putting themselves in the hands of the salespeople.
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amother
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 7:53 am
| cookiecutter wrote: | I HATE when people tell me that they went into a store and asked the salesperson what is normal. It's the worst when you are buying something like kallah jewelry and everything is four times as big as what you got two years ago and eight times more expensive, but they tell you that this is what "people are buying" and "the price of gold went up". (It did. and then it went back down about 30% since 2011. Are you paying 30% less?) First of all, it shouldn't matter what people are buying. But even if it did, why in the world do you trust the people who are selling it to you to tell you?
Same thing for these "helpful" articles in which waiters tell you what to tip, or lawyers tell you whether a tip is customary. What do you think they are going to say?
Same thing for tefillin/mezuzot. You are basically asking the sofer to tell you how frum you ought to be, in his opinion. I will concede that if you do it for jewelry, you should be OBLIGATED to do it for mezuzot.
The ultimate outcome of all of this is that it makes it worse for the average person. The rising tide lifts all boats. It used to be that you tipped for good service; now if you don't give 20% after a terrible experience you are evil. It used to be that kallahs got a ring. A RING! And now, thanks to the morons who ask "what is normal" it is normal to get rings, bracelets, necklaces, earrings, belly rings, and a gold yerushalayim crown. It used to be that you went to the sofer and got the middle of the road mezuza, unless you were a rabbinic family. Now, you just buy a megilla for $1000 and staple it to your doorpost. |
Please do not compare the luxury of buying jewelry with tipping servers and others who usually receive tips.
Limiting my comments to the US, the minimum wage law does not apply to people who ordinarily receive tips, such as waiters, bartenders and cab drivers. As to those persons, the federal minimum wage is $2.13/hour. So if no one tips them, they can work a 40 hour week and make $85.20. No one can live on that. When you sit down at a table in a restaurant, you should understand that you will need to add what is now a standard 20% to your bill, and take that into account when you order. If the service is poor, tip less. But stiffing a waiter in the absence of egregious behavior is beyond the pale and, IMNSHO, is akin to walking out without paying your bill in full.
Same for your child's counselors, since we're heading towards the end of summer. My oldest daughter is a counselor at overnight camp this year. She gets up with your kids at 7 am. Makes sure they daven. Makes sure they get dressed and shower regularly. She has to watch them at meals to make sure they all eat, and report on overeating. When your daughter wants an extra meatball, my daughter is expected to give it to her before she takes any herself. She watches your daughter at every activity to ensure safety. When your daughter throws a hissy fit because she doesn't want to go to the pool, my daughter is expected to deal with it, and to ensure that your daughter goes to the pool (or lose her job). And she doesn't leave her until your daughter is in bed with the lights out. And for that, she receives $400 for the summer (AND is expected to use part of that to tip the waiters). She's working for your tips.
You're comparing giving these people a living wage -- which you know you need to do before you order at the restaurant, or get in that cab -- with buying someone a bracelet? Buy what you want. Or don't buy anything at all. Who cares.
Same with tefillin. You want to buy your kid $2000 tefillin, enjoy. Kol hakavod you can afford it. Its not necessary, and (again IMNSHO), so long as the tefillin comply with your community standards, I don't think it makes you "more frum" to buy more expensive ones. But it has nothing to do with paying servers what they are entitled to.
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 8:47 am
| amother wrote: | Please do not compare the luxury of buying jewelry with tipping servers and others who usually receive tips.
Limiting my comments to the US, the minimum wage law does not apply to people who ordinarily receive tips, such as waiters, bartenders and cab drivers. As to those persons, the federal minimum wage is $2.13/hour. So if no one tips them, they can work a 40 hour week and make $85.20. No one can live on that. When you sit down at a table in a restaurant, you should understand that you will need to add what is now a standard 20% to your bill, and take that into account when you order. If the service is poor, tip less. But stiffing a waiter in the absence of egregious behavior is beyond the pale and, IMNSHO, is akin to walking out without paying your bill in full.
Same for your child's counselors, since we're heading towards the end of summer. My oldest daughter is a counselor at overnight camp this year. She gets up with your kids at 7 am. Makes sure they daven. Makes sure they get dressed and shower regularly. She has to watch them at meals to make sure they all eat, and report on overeating. When your daughter wants an extra meatball, my daughter is expected to give it to her before she takes any herself. She watches your daughter at every activity to ensure safety. When your daughter throws a hissy fit because she doesn't want to go to the pool, my daughter is expected to deal with it, and to ensure that your daughter goes to the pool (or lose her job). And she doesn't leave her until your daughter is in bed with the lights out. And for that, she receives $400 for the summer (AND is expected to use part of that to tip the waiters). She's working for your tips.
You're comparing giving these people a living wage -- which you know you need to do before you order at the restaurant, or get in that cab -- with buying someone a bracelet? Buy what you want. Or don't buy anything at all. Who cares.
Same with tefillin. You want to buy your kid $2000 tefillin, enjoy. Kol hakavod you can afford it. Its not necessary, and (again IMNSHO), so long as the tefillin comply with your community standards, I don't think it makes you "more frum" to buy more expensive ones. But it has nothing to do with paying servers what they are entitled to. |
The Federal minimum wage is $2.13 an hour if the employee gets the regular minimum customarily including tips. It is not as low or as simplistic as you are stating.
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cookiecutter
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 8:49 am
| amother wrote: | Please do not compare the luxury of buying jewelry with tipping servers and others who usually receive tips.
Limiting my comments to the US, the minimum wage law does not apply to people who ordinarily receive tips, such as waiters, bartenders and cab drivers. As to those persons, the federal minimum wage is $2.13/hour. So if no one tips them, they can work a 40 hour week and make $85.20. No one can live on that. When you sit down at a table in a restaurant, you should understand that you will need to add what is now a standard 20% to your bill, and take that into account when you order. If the service is poor, tip less. But stiffing a waiter in the absence of egregious behavior is beyond the pale and, IMNSHO, is akin to walking out without paying your bill in full.
Same for your child's counselors, since we're heading towards the end of summer. My oldest daughter is a counselor at overnight camp this year. She gets up with your kids at 7 am. Makes sure they daven. Makes sure they get dressed and shower regularly. She has to watch them at meals to make sure they all eat, and report on overeating. When your daughter wants an extra meatball, my daughter is expected to give it to her before she takes any herself. She watches your daughter at every activity to ensure safety. When your daughter throws a hissy fit because she doesn't want to go to the pool, my daughter is expected to deal with it, and to ensure that your daughter goes to the pool (or lose her job). And she doesn't leave her until your daughter is in bed with the lights out. And for that, she receives $400 for the summer (AND is expected to use part of that to tip the waiters). She's working for your tips.
You're comparing giving these people a living wage -- which you know you need to do before you order at the restaurant, or get in that cab -- with buying someone a bracelet? Buy what you want. Or don't buy anything at all. Who cares.
Same with tefillin. You want to buy your kid $2000 tefillin, enjoy. Kol hakavod you can afford it. Its not necessary, and (again IMNSHO), so long as the tefillin comply with your community standards, I don't think it makes you "more frum" to buy more expensive ones. But it has nothing to do with paying servers what they are entitled to. | You are not responding at all to my post. I am not advocating not tipping. I am saying that you should not ask the salesperson or the beneficiary of your tip what the appropriate amount is.
FWIW, the cause of the whole ridiculous camp system, where you pay $2000 to send your kid to camp and then another $200 to pay the salaries of the camp's employees is not undertipping, it's overtipping. If people had never got into the habit of paying other people's employees, their costs would be included in tuition or the cost of a cab ride or meal.
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Raisin
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 8:51 am
using a service that requires tipping is usually a luxury. (restaurants etc)
Having said that, I was never tipped as a counselor and never expected it. We did it for the fun experience. (anyone who goes to work in an overnight camp for the money is an idiot. There are many more better paid jobs out there) Seems its a lot more expensive to be a teenager now. When I was a teen my parents paid most of my expenses.
I would not compare tipping a counselor to tipping a waiter.
Also, re tefillin and mezuzos. We buy mezuzos/tefillin for ourselves, and also to sell to other people. There is a basic minimum you can pay for kosher mezuzos, any less and they are possibly not kosher. We are happy to pay a bit more for mehudar tefillin and mezuzos, but we get cheaper ones to sell to people who don't want to spend that much. But we won't buy the very very cheap ones, since we don't want to be involved in selling possibly unkosher mezuzos and tefillin. (likewise with esrogim)
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asmileaday
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 9:00 am
| cookiecutter wrote: | You are not responding at all to my post. I am not advocating not tipping. I am saying that you should not ask the salesperson or the beneficiary of your tip what the appropriate amount is.
FWIW, the cause of the whole ridiculous camp system, where you pay $2000 to send your kid to camp and then another $200 to pay the salaries of the camp's employees is not undertipping, it's overtipping. If people had never got into the habit of paying other people's employees, their costs would be included in tuition or the cost of a cab ride or meal. |
This. It irks me when people argue that you must tip because counselor/teacher etc... get paid so little. (And mind you I was at the receiving end of tips more than once in my life, and it still irks me.) What chutzpah of the camp or school to charge an arm and leg, get away with paying their staff next to nothing, and then the paying parents have to pay again in generous tips because poor teachers and counselors they get paid so little. Hello?!
I think it's scandalous how little they get paid in the first place. And we parents should not be expected to foot the salary bill plus pay for camp. (I'm all for tipping as a show of gratitude though, but then the tips would be considerably less.)
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33055
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 9:01 am
| Raisin wrote: | using a service that requires tipping is usually a luxury. (restaurants etc)
Having said that, I was never tipped as a counselor and never expected it. We did it for the fun experience. (anyone who goes to work in an overnight camp for the money is an idiot. There are many more better paid jobs out there) Seems its a lot more expensive to be a teenager now. When I was a teen my parents paid most of my expenses.
I would not compare tipping a counselor to tipping a waiter.
Also, re tefillin and mezuzos. We buy mezuzos/tefillin for ourselves, and also to sell to other people. There is a basic minimum you can pay for kosher mezuzos, any less and they are possibly not kosher. We are happy to pay a bit more for mehudar tefillin and mezuzos, but we get cheaper ones to sell to people who don't want to spend that much. But we won't buy the very very cheap ones, since we don't want to be involved in selling possibly unkosher mezuzos and tefillin. (likewise with esrogim) |
I am not talking about a questionable esrog. Many people spend hundreds of dollars on this mitzvah when they can have a perfectly kosher one for less. If you want to spend I have no issue but why show off? If it is for Hashem then there is no need to broadcast.
I know people who set a minimum they will spend. They are not setting a minimum standard about the quality and beauty of the fruit. They want a $500 esrog (or whatever price) each and every year. This is consumerism as a competition.
BTW I feel the same way about tzeducah. There is no need to broadcast to get the community's applause. I understand the reasons the fundraisers do.
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asmileaday
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 9:02 am
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And yeah I've never understood the need to ask salesladies what's "normal". I guess I'm just an independent thinker. But I don't see that that is the reason for people buying more expensive stuff.
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amother
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 9:13 am
| Raisin wrote: | using a service that requires tipping is usually a luxury. (restaurants etc)
Having said that, I was never tipped as a counselor and never expected it. We did it for the fun experience. (anyone who goes to work in an overnight camp for the money is an idiot. There are many more better paid jobs out there) Seems its a lot more expensive to be a teenager now. When I was a teen my parents paid most of my expenses.
I would not compare tipping a counselor to tipping a waiter.
Also, re tefillin and mezuzos. We buy mezuzos/tefillin for ourselves, and also to sell to other people. There is a basic minimum you can pay for kosher mezuzos, any less and they are possibly not kosher. We are happy to pay a bit more for mehudar tefillin and mezuzos, but we get cheaper ones to sell to people who don't want to spend that much. But we won't buy the very very cheap ones, since we don't want to be involved in selling possibly unkosher mezuzos and tefillin. (likewise with esrogim) |
You are right. Restaurants are a luxury. But in the US, when you go into a restaurant, you know you have to tip. Its not extra. When you stiff your waiter, you are stealing from him, so the tip is not a luxury.
As to tipping counselors, thank you for calling my daughter an idiot. I'm sure she would feel the same about you if I shared your comments. But when the camp makes clear that counselors should be tipped, and you don't tip them, you are stealing from the counselors, even if you thought it was so much fun that you didn't need to be paid for working 21/7 for 7 straight weeks.
We pay all of her necessary expenses. She pays the extras, like taking her friend out for a fancy birthday dinner.
And no one is suggesting not buying kosher klafs.
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amother
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 9:17 am
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I was just thinking this recently. I just moved and needed mezuzahs for y new home. I went to the sofer and he quotes me three prices- low, middle, high. Now, I know nothing about safrus and what makes one more mehudar than another, but the guy said the low price gets you "just basic kosher" leaving me feeling like I HAVE to at least go the middle route, because why would you want "just" kosher? I could afford it, but we wre feeling very tapped out at the moment from the expense of the move, and I just feel so upset over being guilted into expensive klafs.
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Maya
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 9:26 am
| amother wrote: | | I was just thinking this recently. I just moved and needed mezuzahs for y new home. I went to the sofer and he quotes me three prices- low, middle, high. Now, I know nothing about safrus and what makes one more mehudar than another, but the guy said the low price gets you "just basic kosher" leaving me feeling like I HAVE to at least go the middle route, because why would you want "just" kosher? I could afford it, but we wre feeling very tapped out at the moment from the expense of the move, and I just feel so upset over being guilted into expensive klafs. |
If you feel guilt over buying something that's "just" kosher, that's your own issue, not the sofer's.
I agree with the OP's premise, that the consumers put themselves into these ridiculous situations, and then look for someone to blame.
My mother works in a retail store. All customers only want to buy what "everyone else" is buying. So yeah, she tells them that everyone is buying the $85 product. She's not lying, it's the truth. Nobody wants the cheaper product because "nobody else" is getting that one. Can you blame the proprietors for taking advantage of that?
A friend of mine complained bitterly about the $2,500 shaitel and $400 cut that a certain sheitel macher in the area charges. She feels like she has to go to her because that's where all her friends go and that's what everybody is recommending.
In general, I have zero tolerance for people who can't make decisions based on their own preferences and need input from the whole world, starting by their friends and family, continuing with salespeople in the store, and ending by the total strangers who are shopping alongside them.
Last edited by Maya on Mon, Jul 28 2014, 9:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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Barbara
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 9:32 am
| Maya wrote: | | If you feel guilt over buying something that's "just" kosher, that's your own issue, not the sofer's. |
Part of it is marketing. You go into a store, and there are 3 similar coats. One is $150, the next $400, the last one $900.
The store doesn't expect to sell very many $900 coats. They have them to make you feel that the $400 coat is well-priced. And of course you don't want to be the shlump buying the $150 coat.
Sure, there are differences as well. But a lot is marketing.
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Raisin
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 9:33 am
| amother wrote: | You are right. Restaurants are a luxury. But in the US, when you go into a restaurant, you know you have to tip. Its not extra. When you stiff your waiter, you are stealing from him, so the tip is not a luxury.
As to tipping counselors, thank you for calling my daughter an idiot. I'm sure she would feel the same about you if I shared your comments. But when the camp makes clear that counselors should be tipped, and you don't tip them, you are stealing from the counselors, even if you thought it was so much fun that you didn't need to be paid for working 21/7 for 7 straight weeks.
We pay all of her necessary expenses. She pays the extras, like taking her friend out for a fancy birthday dinner.
And no one is suggesting not buying kosher klafs. |
If your daughter is not enjoying being a counselor, there are other jobs she can get that pay better. Since she has chosen to be a counselor, I assume she enjoys some or all aspects of it. I doubt she is an idiot. (btw this applies to many other jobs...I hope you are not doing a job you hate that is also poorly paid)
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ally
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 10:03 am
| asmileaday wrote: | This. It irks me when people argue that you must tip because counselor/teacher etc... get paid so little. (And mind you I was at the receiving end of tips more than once in my life, and it still irks me.) What chutzpah of the camp or school to charge an arm and leg, get away with paying their staff next to nothing, and then the paying parents have to pay again in generous tips because poor teachers and counselors they get paid so little. Hello?!
I think it's scandalous how little they get paid in the first place. And we parents should not be expected to foot the salary bill plus pay for camp. (I'm all for tipping as a show of gratitude though, but then the tips would be considerably less.) |
I agree with this. And I think it applies to restaurants too. Tipping used to be an optional show of goodwill. Now the customer is expected to pay the wages of the employees.
There's nothing you can do about it, but it is a ridiculous situation.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 11:16 am
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I haven't encountered this phenomenon. I don't ask, or get told, what to buy.
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self-actualization
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 2:09 pm
| amother wrote: | | I was just thinking this recently. I just moved and needed mezuzahs for y new home. I went to the sofer and he quotes me three prices- low, middle, high. Now, I know nothing about safrus and what makes one more mehudar than another, but the guy said the low price gets you "just basic kosher" leaving me feeling like I HAVE to at least go the middle route, because why would you want "just" kosher? I could afford it, but we wre feeling very tapped out at the moment from the expense of the move, and I just feel so upset over being guilted into expensive klafs. |
Most people that are buying many mezuzahs at one time are doing so because they just moved into a house. Most people are cash-strapped at that point. A mezuzah seller/sofer is always hearing people's sob stories 
After I moved into my house, I went and spent $1000 on mezuzahs. My husband and I were being dramatic about our lack of extra cash. After the purchase we told the mezuzah seller that he could come to us for a Shabbos meal (he was single). He said - oh no, I wouldn't want to come to you guys, are you sure you have extra funds to feed me?
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amother
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 6:26 pm
Someone I know opened a rental for kallah headpieces. She had gotten them at great prices and offered them to kallas for much cheaper than the other local places. She got very few customers. Why? Because if something is too cheap people question: How could it be so cheap? There must be something wrong with it... And even if there's nothing wrong, it's "nebby" to spend so little...
If they spend more, they feel better about themselves for having gotten a "better" product. So yeah, the salespeople cash in on people's insecurities and need to conform.
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chaos
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Mon, Jul 28 2014, 6:30 pm
| Maya wrote: | If you feel guilt over buying something that's "just" kosher, that's your own issue, not the sofer's.
I agree with the OP's premise, that the consumers put themselves into these ridiculous situations, and then look for someone to blame.
My mother works in a retail store. All customers only want to buy what "everyone else" is buying. So yeah, she tells them that everyone is buying the $85 product. She's not lying, it's the truth. Nobody wants the cheaper product because "nobody else" is getting that one. Can you blame the proprietors for taking advantage of that?
A friend of mine complained bitterly about the $2,500 shaitel and $400 cut that a certain sheitel macher in the area charges. She feels like she has to go to her because that's where all her friends go and that's what everybody is recommending.
In general, I have zero tolerance for people who can't make decisions based on their own preferences and need input from the whole world, starting by their friends and family, continuing with salespeople in the store, and ending by the total strangers who are shopping alongside them. |
I'm with you. I never understood the whole crowdsourcing product recommendations phenomenon. Figure out your needs and preferences, decide how much you want to spend, and buy what you want/need. Why do purchases need to be turned into group decisions? Why do we need our purchases to be justified and validated by everyone else?
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