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Amalek



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amother


 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 12:23 am
The Islamic religion is taught to hate and kill Jews from a young age. The Jewish religion is taught to kill someone from amalek. What the diff?
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Learning




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 12:29 am
amother wrote:
The Islamic religion is taught to hate and kill Jews from a young age. The Jewish religion is taught to kill someone from amalek. What the diff?

We are not taught to really actively do it. They are taught to go and kill and even die while doing it. For us it's a symbol of killing the evil in the world.
In the olden days it was an actual mitzvah. it was a different world and you can't compare. We can't even start to grasp the scope of that generation. We don't understand at all how evil and holly was in that days.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 12:37 am
We're not actually killing anyone. Yep, that's the difference.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 1:19 am
Do you believe that God told this to Muhammed?

Do you believe that God told this to the Jewish nation at one point in history?

That's the difference.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 1:36 am
What others have said but also -as far as I am aware classic Islam as a religion does not preach to 'hate and kill Jews from a young age'. Muslims are enjoined to wage Jihad against infidels who will not accept Islam. Jews and Christians in lands conquered by Islam were accorded a special status as 'peoples of the book' and were generally tolerated though their status was a subservient one and they often endured persecutions, depending on political circumstances as they still do today. The existance of Israel as a Jewish state is inflammatory from an Islamic perspective because it violates the conception of Judaism as in inferior, defeated religion and Israel is perceived as a foreign element in 'what should be' a purely Islamic region.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 2:17 am
etky wrote:
What others have said but also -as far as I am aware classic Islam as a religion does not preach to 'hate and kill Jews from a young age'. Muslims are enjoined to wage Jihad against infidels who will not accept Islam. Jews and Christians in lands conquered by Islam were accorded a special status as 'peoples of the book' and were generally tolerated though their status was a subservient one and they often endured persecutions, depending on political circumstances as they still do today. The existance of Israel as a Jewish state is inflammatory from an Islamic perspective because it violates the conception of Judaism as in inferior, defeated religion and Israel is perceived as a foreign element in 'what should be' a purely Islamic region.


shock Were you at my rabbi's class last week? He basically said the exact same thing.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 1:47 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Do you believe that God told this to Muhammed?

Do you believe that God told this to the Jewish nation at one point in history?

That's the difference.


I don't really like this answer because it gives their position quite a bit of credence. In other words, you are saying: if you believe in Muhammed, it is the right thing for you to act like this. The only reason it is wrong is because I personally don't believe Muhammed was a true prophet, otherwise I'd go around murdering everyone who wasn't like me.

Is that what you really mean to say?


Last edited by marina on Tue, Jul 29 2014, 1:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 1:51 pm
Learning wrote:
We are not taught to really actively do it. They are taught to go and kill and even die while doing it. For us it's a symbol of killing the evil in the world.
In the olden days it was an actual mitzvah. it was a different world and you can't compare. We can't even start to grasp the scope of that generation. We don't understand at all how evil and holly was in that days.


The mitzva of killing Amaleik ended after the nation intermarried and we could no longer tell an Amaleiki from a non- Amaleiki.

So it's not really a fundamental, qualitative difference that you are describing here. It's more like an accident- they all intermarried, oops, I guess we'll have to put this mitzva on hold for now.

In other words, the mitzva still exists, it's just impractical to do right now. If you saw a person and knew 100% he and his wife and child were Amaleki, you'd have to kill all of them on the spot. Even today.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 2:07 pm
marina wrote:
The mitzva of killing Amaleik ended after the nation intermarried and we could no longer tell an Amaleiki from a non- Amaleiki.

So it's not really a fundamental, qualitative difference that you are describing here. It's more like an accident- they all intermarried, oops, I guess we'll have to put this mitzva on hold for now.

In other words, the mitzva still exists, it's just impractical to do right now. If you saw a person and knew 100% he and his wife and child were Amaleki, you'd have to kill all of them on the spot. Even today.


Even with dina d'malchusa dina?
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 2:17 pm
Being that the Mitzvah to kill Amalek isn't practiced today not enough is known about it to have any real comment.However based on what I do know people aren't killed only because they were born to Amelaki parents.Someone who was has the option of rejecting the his or her Amalak upbringing.

The question here is like asking "What is the difference the US and Hamas.Both kill innocent civilians when they wage war?"
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Learning




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 2:39 pm
marina wrote:
The mitzva of killing Amaleik ended after the nation intermarried and we could no longer tell an Amaleiki from a non- Amaleiki.

So it's not really a fundamental, qualitative difference that you are describing here. It's more like an accident- they all intermarried, oops, I guess we'll have to put this mitzva on hold for now.

In other words, the mitzva still exists, it's just impractical to do right now. If you saw a person and knew 100% he and his wife and child were Amaleki, you'd have to kill all of them on the spot. Even today.

It doesn't matter why but the fact is we are not going and killing amalek now. Hashem changed the situation and this mitzvah is not going to be practiced at all right now. The torah is perfect and it all falls into place one way or another.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 2:42 pm
fyi, apparently the rambam says we don't kill amaleik unless they don't accept a peaceful settlement. Melachim 6:4
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 3:00 pm
what marina said is correct- we don't know who is amalek today because amalek intermarried. according to the Rav zt'l (rav yoshe ber soleveitchik) anyone who wants to kill Jewish ppl just because they are Jewish has the din of amalek.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 3:05 pm
marina wrote:
fyi, apparently the rambam says we don't kill amaleik unless they don't accept a peaceful settlement. Melachim 6:4

Also, an Amaleki who accepts the 7 mitzvot bnei Noach is like any other person, ie, it's absolutely not allowed to kill them. At least from what I learned (maybe it's the same Rambam you're quoting).
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 3:10 pm
I second and third what previous posters said about Islam. Most Muslims are not taught to hate and kill Jews. Even extremists and terrorists would (most of them) accept Jews who convert to Islam and agree with their views.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 4:20 pm
Over the past year I have heard R' Riskin speak about Amalek several times.
Since Amalek no longer exists physically as an entity, R' Riskin takes a figurative, universalistic view of the mitzva. He says that any group of people whose goal it is to overide and negate the individual - the intrinsic value and sanctity of an individual human life as an end into itself -represents the values of Amalek and must be rooted out. This would include many groups and regimes familiar to us from modern history such as Nazi Germany and other totalitarian regimes from the previous century (and some from this century too...). He also points out that the memory of Amalek - zecher Amalek - is optimally obliterated not by his physical extinction but rather by his repentance and acceptance of morality as represented by the Noahide laws.
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mdoif




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 6:59 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Even with dina d'malchusa dina?


To answer just your question, dina d'malchusa only ever has any relevance when it doesn't contradict the halachos of the torah, and for the main part it is only relevant in monetary laws.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 7:22 pm
mdoif wrote:
To answer just your question, dina d'malchusa only ever has any relevance when it doesn't contradict the halachos of the torah, and for the main part it is only relevant in monetary laws.


But even while we know that eradicating evil is a great kiddush Hashem it would still make a chillul Hashem in the general perception. And think of the consequences - life in prison or death penalty. If one isn't risking his life in the process. We're living in a time of hester panim. I can't imagine anyone having the clarity of knowing who Amalek really is. Actually, I could imagine it. And the people who I would "suspect" of having such clarity haven't bumped anyone off that I know of.
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