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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Last ditch effort to keep daughter out of PS -meeting today
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 20 2014, 11:59 pm
cookiecutter wrote:
Use your brains.


That's sorta randomly rude. What did anon for this ever do to you?
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anon for this




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 21 2014, 4:32 pm
I've been informed that my posts on this thread yesterday were offensive to parents of children with special needs. As a parent of a child who spent a few years in public school due to her special educational needs, I was just trying to understand the thoughts of other posters on the subject. I certainly didn't intend to insult other parents of children with special needs.

Please accept my apologies.
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Chana Miriam S




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2014, 1:48 am
I have been trying to figure out what bothers me so much about mdoif's comments here. It just struck me. She talks about non Jews the way the nazis spoke about Jews before they committed mass genocide.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jul 28 2014, 9:49 pm
andrea levy wrote:
I have been trying to figure out what bothers me so much about mdoif's comments here. It just struck me. She talks about non Jews the way the nazis spoke about Jews before they committed mass genocide.


No she didn't. She was just harsh. (And I'm being objective, since I didn't agree with a lot of what she had to say).

And they have committed genocide. Have we forgotten about the pogroms? Inquisitions? What Hamas is trying to do?

Don't be so sympathetic. There is a very clear difference between us and them. You would do well to remember that and not sugar coat things.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 28 2014, 10:24 pm
Off topic.

I hope OP is all right.
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anon for this




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 28 2014, 10:39 pm
amother wrote:
No she didn't. She was just harsh. (And I'm being objective, since I didn't agree with a lot of what she had to say).

And they have committed genocide. Have we forgotten about the pogroms? Inquisitions? What Hamas is trying to do?

Don't be so sympathetic. There is a very clear difference between us and them. You would do well to remember that and not sugar coat things.


Regarding your first point, I don't think OP's daughter's classmates (or their parents) have participated in pogroms or inquisitions, or are members of Hamas. So I don't understand how your point is relevant.

Regarding your second point, I don't think anyone here--neither the OP nor any other poster--is saying that there's no difference between Jews and non-Jews. But this difference has nothing to do with the fact that there are non-Jews who would destroy us. This difference exists between all Jews and non-Jews, even our greatest supporters.

I hope OP and her family are doing well.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jul 28 2014, 10:54 pm
Andrea Levy posted about how mdoif's comments bothered her because they reminded her of how the nazis spoke about Jews.

Meaning that mdoif was being radical in the same way that the nazis had once been.

My point in saying what I said (about the pogroms and inquisitions) is valid-- in that I was backing mdoif up.

Just because the students aren't ex-nazis or hamas, and neither are their parents. . . they are non jews. The people who led those pogroms and inquisitions are their great ancestors. And I'm speaking from someone who went to public school practically her whole life.

So I don't get your point. You think just because non jews befriend you now, because we co-exist and can go to school and work with the, this isn't their history?
You are wrong. This is where they come from. It is their heritage. And they will turn on you in the blink of an eye. What happened to "Zachor Asher Asa Lecha Amalek"?????

And I think that is why mdoif was not speaking like a "Nazi". So the poster who indirectly hinted at that I feel was wrong in saying so.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jul 28 2014, 10:55 pm
By the way, I also hope the OP and her family are doing well.
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anon for this




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 28 2014, 11:26 pm
amother wrote:
Andrea Levy posted about how mdoif's comments bothered her because they reminded her of how the nazis spoke about Jews.

Meaning that mdoif was being radical in the same way that the nazis had once been.

My point in saying what I said (about the pogroms and inquisitions) is valid-- in that I was backing mdoif up.

Just because the students aren't ex-nazis or hamas, and neither are their parents. . . they are non jews. The people who led those pogroms and inquisitions are their great ancestors. And I'm speaking from someone who went to public school practically her whole life.

So I don't get your point. You think just because non jews befriend you now, because we co-exist and can go to school and work with the, this isn't their history?
You are wrong. This is where they come from. It is their heritage. And they will turn on you in the blink of an eye. What happened to "Zachor Asher Asa Lecha Amalek"?????

And I think that is why mdoif was not speaking like a "Nazi". So the poster who indirectly hinted at that I feel was wrong in saying so.

How does it follow that all non-Jews are descendants of Jew-murderers? And not all descendants of murderers are themselves evil people. Is there not a medrash that states that Haman's descendants learned Torah?

I'm well aware that there's a mitzvah of remembering and destroying Amalek. But this mitzvah applies only to Amalek, not to non-Jews of other nations. Do you believe that all non-Jews today are descendants of Amalek?

I don't think anyone here is saying that there should be no separation between Jews and non-Jews. Of course people can and do disagree on the parameters of this separation. But regardless of where you draw the boundaries, I think it's important to realize that this separation is not based on the belief that non-Jews are evil or murderers. It's based on the fact that Hashem chose us as his people.

I'm not andrea levy, but I was also disturbed by the way mdoif described non-Jews (I'd rather not repeat the exact terms she used here). Not because I think that all non-Jews are my friends, but because Hashem created all people in His image. And some of those descriptions made them sound less than human.

Edited for grammar error
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mdoif




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 6:25 pm
First off, whether non jews are created b'tzelem Elokim (in His image) is a matter of debate among the rishonim, so it's not such a simple issue. However, even if Hashem did create all mankind in His image, it is clear from all the seforim hakedoshim that the non jews perverted their purpose, and have therefore been cast away. (see for example Sforno Tehilim intro to perek 33)

Secondly, the problem with the way the Nazis spoke was not that they generalized, but that they called for the extermination of the entire Jewish nation. Generalization per se is not necessarily wrong.


Let us examine in a nutshell how the torah wants us to relate to the non jews.

There is a posuk in sefer Devorim ולא תחנם. See Rashi לא תחנם - , (ע"ז לב) לא תתן להם חן אסור לו לאדם לומר כמה נאה כותי זה (יבמות י) - do not give them 'chein' (beauty); it is forbidden for a person to say, "How beautiful is this [gentile]."

This issur applies not just when talking about physical beauty, but to all manners of beautifying and praising non jews; it is forbidden to sing the praises of a [gentile].

Another meaning of לא תחנם is that one is forbidden to give a מתנת חנם (free gift) to a [gentile]. The poskim write that it is muttar (and in many cases even recommended) to tip your employee etc., as this isn't a free gift but rather an investment in future work, but giving free gifts to a [gentile] for no good reason is assur. In the same way it is assur to return an 'aveidoh' (lost property) of a [gentile]. (There might be instances when it is muttar in order to make a kiddush Hashem, and as with all halachic questions ask your LOR.)



In regards relationships with non jews, we find Chazal instituted many dinim with the sole purpose of keeping us apart. That is the reason behind the issur of stam yaynom, bishul akum, pas akum and more.

Chazal also proclaimed a tumah comparable to a zav/zavah on non jewish children from a very young age. The reason given for this is so Yiddish children will not befriend non jewish ones and become morally corrupted by them.

This is how Chazal viewed Jewish/non-Jewish interactions, and this is how careful they were for our children not to mingle with theirs. As an aside, history also agrees.


There's is much more I can write on this subject, but the point is this: PS can never be an option for a Jewish child - even when (through the callousness of the Jewish school) there is no other option. In the same way that no sane mother would send her DC to a school situated in a leper's colony, lest the child contract a physical disease, so should no mother send her DC to a non jewish school lest the child is spiritually corrupted.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 6:41 pm
I'm the OP.

I'm posting for those of you who were wondering how things are going. I actually probably shouldn't be posting anything right now b/c I am feeling so livid at what is going on with the school. I won't even begin to explain it now. I couldn't even try. I guess in short - we are now thinking of pulling both of my children. In fact by the end of the week THEY will at least be registered for public school.

Uch, uch, uch what a disgrace! This school is behaving SO badly! Feels like a mafia school, feels like we are being blackmailed! they are accountable to no one!! Even other yeshivahs and day schools are held accountable to someone -right?? It is scary what is going on. We got a letter today from the school with info different than what was discussed at the meeting! If I wasn't there at the meeting I would be convinced that maybe my husband misunderstood him or missed something - but I was there! I heard what he said and it is not what he put down on the contract! Ugh! I feel like throwing up! And someone said that this guy davens for the amud at his shul on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur - how is that possible?!?!

We for sure need a lawyer to even look at everything included! There is no way we could sign anything! I'm shaking. At a loss of who to turn to for help. My husband was going to meet again with shul Rabbi - but it sounded like he is dealing with the school in a way that he couldn't tell us. Things are so much worse and frightening than I could have ever imaging. We have no one to turn to for guidance right now. Just at a complete loss. I feel so bad for my husband. I don't know how to help and neither does he...

I have to go breathe now and calm down. How can a school - a Jewish school run like this? I just don't understand.

By the way, my son is still asking for his report card grades:(
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 6:59 pm
So sad for you, OP. I have nothing useful to contribute except Hug
Good luck. I hope a hero swoops in at the last moment and saves the day for you. I do worry about your kids in PS - there's so much benefit to a Jewish education.
debsey
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mdoif




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 7:05 pm
OP you have my utmost sympathies. If the school administrators are truly behaving in such a disgusting fashion they deserve to be shot.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 7:07 pm
Hug
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 7:17 pm
mdoif wrote:
First off, whether non jews are created b'tzelem Elokim (in His image) is a matter of debate among the rishonim, so it's not such a simple issue. However, even if Hashem did create all mankind in His image, it is clear from all the seforim hakedoshim that the non jews perverted their purpose, and have therefore been cast away. (see for example Sforno Tehilim intro to perek 33)


There is so much to address here. I will simply quote Pirkei Avos, Chavivin odom shenivra b'tzelem. Precious is man who was created in the image of G-d. Of course, the mishna does go on to say how Yisrael is special and called banim. No question and I'm grateful to be part of klal Yisrael.

And think: Hashem told the angels off when they sang shira at the Yam Suf because His creations were sinking in the Yam Suf. His creations who had surely corrupted their souls by treating B"Y so terribly.
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mdoif




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 7:24 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
There is so much to address here. I will simply quote Pirkei Avos, Chavivin odom shenivra b'tzelem. Precious is man who was created in the image of G-d. Of course, the mishna does go on to say how Yisrael is special and called banim. No question and I'm grateful to be part of klal Yisrael.

And think: Hashem told the angels off when they sang shira at the Yam Suf because His creations were sinking in the Yam Suf. His creations who had surely corrupted their souls by treating B"Y so terribly.


There are many pshatim on that midrash, but that is all a thought exercise. In practice we have to follow halacha, and I've amply demonstrated that both the letter and spirit of the law is opposed to Yidden and non jews mingling.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 7:33 pm
mdoif wrote:
There are many pshatim on that midrash, but that is all a thought exercise. In practice we have to follow halacha, and I've amply demonstrated that both the letter and spirit of the law is opposed to Yidden and non jews mingling.


I don't disagree with you on that.
I will say that while this is an ideal, individuals may have to deal with situations and in this case, our OP has clearly stated she is working with a rav through a very difficult situation. The rav may have his hands tied, I'm not clear, but it seems that he is available now and will be with future shailos if her kids end up in p.s.
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out-of-towner




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 7:48 pm
mdoif wrote:
There are many pshatim on that midrash, but that is all a thought exercise. In practice we have to follow halacha, and I've amply demonstrated that both the letter and spirit of the law is opposed to Yidden and non jews mingling.


Except when there are exceptions. And clearly this is likely an exception.

Have you ever read the book "Daughters of Destiny"? There is one Rebbetzin I remember (can't remember who though) who herself went to public school and that was the norm in those days. The Halacha not to mingle doesn't explicitly state that you can't go to school with a non-Jew. Trust me. I go to school with non Jews and I am pretty sure that I'm not violating this Halacha. Not all women on this site are privileged enough to lead the kind of insular life that you seem to lead.

It's just that it happens to be that B"H we live in a generation with a Frum school system. It wasn't always like that. My great-grandmother was forced to go to school on Shabbos. There were no Frum schools in her day. And B"H she managed to raise a family of Eherlach, Torah Observant Yidden. And it is a credit to her that B"H every one of her 40+ KA"H descendants are Frum!

OP my heart is truly breaking for you! I hope that the school situations resolve without any lasting scars. And may Hashem give you strength to make the right decisions.
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bamamama




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 10:24 pm
mdoif, seriously. The administrators deserve to be shot? Non-jews are lesser than Jews (the implication behind your comment that it's up for debate whether or not non-Jews are created in the image of God).

So racism and violence are cool with you? That is not the truth and whomever told you such narishkeit is not a true scholar but is an imposter. I've had it with these ugly, ugly attitudes found some places in the frum community. I'm disgusted.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 29 2014, 10:37 pm
Many, many women on this site don't WANT to lead the insular kind of life, and would never teach their kids this stuff.

Certainly many people on here have non Jewish friends; some, like me, have non Jewish family.

That doesn't change the fact that the OP is suffering because she wants her children in a Jewish school, which is perfectly understandable.

But all these comments about how awful gentiles are, are not helping OP and are alienating a lot of other people. I mean, clearly if I'm going to a friend's birthday party I'm going to give her a present of some sort, whether she's Jewish or not Smile This is just one example.

Mdoif, I suggest you consider before posting. Ask yourself, "Am I doing any good? Or am I just establishing the boundaries of my universe?" We all do the latter sometimes, but it seems like that's all you do.
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