last ditch effort to keep daughter out of PS -meeting today

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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

Last ditch effort to keep daughter out of PS -meeting today

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Notsobusy

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 10:48 pm

Mdoif - have you ever learned about not causing someone else tzaar? You seem to know all of the chumros, but not when to keep your mouth shut. The op is obviously in tremendous pain, is not doing this happily, she is being treated horribly. If you have nothing helpful to say, just say I'm sorry for your pain, I have a feeling Hashem would appreciate that a lot.

Bruria

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 10:53 pm

Honestly, if the school has no ahavat Israel like they are showing, your kids are better off at PS than in that school! No way to trust how they teach Torah, values and morals this way!

out-of-towner

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 10:56 pm

glutenless wrote:

This!

I'm still waiting for the public apology that I PMed you about Mdoif! It's a good thing that the OP clearly isn't taking you to heart. If I was the OP, your comments would have hurt me tremendously. And hurting a fellow Jew is a big aviera, at least in my Torah!

This is not a thread debating the pros and cons of Jewish day school verses public school. This is a thread about the OP having a very big issue on her hands, one that will make it impossible for her to make the decision that she wants to make. She KNOWS the pros and cons of public school verses Jewish school. You are simply pouring salt on her open wounds!

If you want to plead your case for Jewish school, I suggest you start your own thread and leave this thread for those who are able to give the OP Chizzuk!

debsey

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 11:00 pm

glutenless wrote:

OK, I'm getting ready to duck all the flaming posts that are about to be headed my way....
I don't think mdoif is intentionally trying to hurt anyone. I think she's shocked and horrified that a Jewish child will go to PS and trying to express herself in the strongest words possible. It's possible she was raised very sheltered, and doesn't realize that some very frum people went to PS and that this HAPPENS. I once told a rebbetzin in my school that I'm embarrassed that my mother went to PS (We had to do some sort of interview project and I didn't want to write about my mother) and she said "so what, me too!" (I was a 6th grader and she just took such a load off my heart. Now I can't fathom what I was thinking, being ashamed of my amazing mother!)
I'm more shocked and horrified that an administration of a school that IDs itself as Jewish can act in this way, and push a child into PS.

out-of-towner

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 11:04 pm

debsey wrote:

Yes, but there are better ways to express it than that! She did so in a way that was self-righteous rather than "I care about you and am horrified that you are in this position!" Had it come out as that, it would have been okay, but she was basically saying "You are going to kill your kid by doing this to them" and so even though the OP has no choice, well you still are going to kill your kid. Do everything possible. I'm sure that the OP IS doing everything possible, and she still doesn't have a choice!

debsey

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 11:09 pm

out-of-towner wrote:

So you are saying she's being cruel, and I am saying maybe tactless or maybe shocked. We don't disagree. I just don't think she's coming from a bad place. Her intentions are good (and yes, I know all about the road to H*ll)
debsey

sequoia

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 11:11 pm

People who are that sheltered are not on the internet.

out-of-towner

Tue, Jul 29 2014, 11:15 pm

sequoia wrote:

People who are that sheltered are not on the internet.

That's where I disagree. I am relatively sheltered considering where I come from, and I use the internet. I use it for specific things and don't look at what I don't want or need to look at!

But we all tend to be a bit judgmental on imamother!

Notsobusy

Wed, Jul 30 2014, 12:06 am

I hear your point debsey and I do feel a little bad about what I wrote. However, you can feel the op's pain in every post she writes. She is going through a horrible time, she is being treated terribly by the administration, she is clearly trying her hardest to have the least impact possible on her child. She obviously put serious thought into this. All mdoif has to do is think a little before she posts - will this help the op or hurt her even more?

amother

Wed, Jul 30 2014, 12:38 am

I'm frum, yet some of my best friends are non Jews. I do have a child in public school with lots of non Jewish friends. We choose our friends based on their middos, not based on their religion. Our non Jewish friends would NEVER say the hurtful things I've seen a Jew say in this thread.

I wonder how we would feel if non Jews were saying it's tantamount to murder to send their children to school with our children because their children would be corrupted.

It's a kiddush HaShem to be friendly to everyone. Neighborly. Part of the community. I'm so sad when my non Jewish friends tell us that we're different from many Orthodox Jews they know because we're willing to talk to them and let our kids play together.

suzyq

Wed, Jul 30 2014, 11:08 am

amother wrote:

LOVE this. Perfectly put.

Barbara

Wed, Jul 30 2014, 11:21 am

debsey wrote:

I won't flame you. I actually think you're being really sweet.

But she's been called on it time and time again, and refuses to back down.

I know she thinks she's right. But sometimes that doesn't matter. What matters is how what we're saying affects another person. And here, the OP is clearly in pain. We have a choice. We can try to help her ( Thumbs Up

), try to make her feel better ( Thumbs Up

), keep quiet ( Thumbs Up

), or speak our minds even if it may hurt her even more ( Banging head

). I hope I haven't done the last. And I understand hurting someone without meaning to. But mdoif seems to think that her speaking her ideals is more important than the OP. And its just plain not.

anon for this

Wed, Jul 30 2014, 11:50 am

mdoif wrote:

First off, whether non jews are created b'tzelem Elokim (in His image) is a matter of debate among the rishonim, so it's not such a simple issue. However, even if Hashem did create all mankind in His image, it is clear from all the seforim hakedoshim that the non jews perverted their purpose, and have therefore been cast away. (see for example Sforno Tehilim intro to perek 33)

Secondly, the problem with the way the Nazis spoke was not that they generalized, but that they called for the extermination of the entire Jewish nation. Generalization per se is not necessarily wrong.

Let us examine in a nutshell how the torah wants us to relate to the non jews.

There is a posuk in sefer Devorim ולא תחנם. See Rashi לא תחנם - , (ע"ז לב) לא תתן להם חן אסור לו לאדם לומר כמה נאה כותי זה (יבמות י) - do not give them 'chein' (beauty); it is forbidden for a person to say, "How beautiful is this gentile."

This issur applies not just when talking about physical beauty, but to all manners of beautifying and praising non jews; it is forbidden to sing the praises of a gentile.

Another meaning of לא תחנם is that one is forbidden to give a מתנת חנם (free gift) to a gentile. The poskim write that it is muttar (and in many cases even recommended) to tip your employee etc., as this isn't a free gift but rather an investment in future work, but giving free gifts to a gentile for no good reason is assur. In the same way it is assur to return an 'aveidoh' (lost property) of a gentile. (There might be instances when it is muttar in order to make a kiddush Hashem, and as with all halachic questions ask your LOR.)

In regards relationships with non jews, we find Chazal instituted many dinim with the sole purpose of keeping us apart. That is the reason behind the issur of stam yaynom, bishul akum, pas akum and more.

Chazal also proclaimed a tumah comparable to a zav/zavah on non jewish children from a very young age. The reason given for this is so Yiddish children will not befriend non jewish ones and become morally corrupted by them.

This is how Chazal viewed Jewish/non-Jewish interactions, and this is how careful they were for our children not to mingle with theirs. As an aside, history also agrees.

There's is much more I can write on this subject, but the point is this: PS can never be an option for a Jewish child - even when (through the callousness of the Jewish school) there is no other option. In the same way that no sane mother would send her DC to a school situated in a leper's colony, lest the child contract a physical disease, so should no mother send her DC to a non jewish school lest the child is spiritually corrupted.

Regarding your claim that all non-Jews have been cast away by Hashem, if you are going to claim that all the Sifrei HaKedoshim agree with you, I'd like cites from more than one source. Thanks.

In an earlier post, you cited Rambam's statement that one should live in the desert rather than among evil people as proof that one should never associate with non-Jews. Yet the Rambam himself provided medical care to non-Jews and associated with other non-Jewish physicians. So it would seem to me that you misunderstood what Rambam meant.

I think that's true of your quotes here as well. Very few posters (if any) are arguing that there should be no distance between Jews and non-Jews. And that's what the halachos you cite are about, maintaining boundaries between Jews and non-Jews. Obviously Chazal envisioned a world where Jews and non-Jews would interact for various reasons; otherwise these halachos wouldn't exist.

And about your statement that non-Jewish children are tamei b'tumas zav, I'm pretty sure that many of us (except for kohanim) are tamei l'mais these days. Also I'm not sure what you mean by saying "history also agrees", I would like cites for that too. Did you mean the friendship of Yehuda HaNasi and Marcus Aurelius, and the untold horrors that relationship brought to the Jewish people?

As I said before, reasonable people can and do disagree about which interactions between Jews and non-Jews are appropriate, and which aren't. Personally, I chose to send my daughter to a public school so she could get the education and services she needed--services she couldn't have obtained at a Jewish school. Now she's in a regular Jewish school and loves learning chumash and parsha. If I'd insisted on sending her to a Jewish school she'd be struggling and might not be feeling very good about school or yiddishkeit in general. Sending her to a public "cesspool"/"leper's colony" was the best thing I could have done for her physical, emotional, and spiritual welfare.

amother

Wed, Jul 30 2014, 1:52 pm

suzyq wrote:

LOVE this. Perfectly put.

This is so wrong. I don't even know where to begin. I also went to public school, but never had non-Jewish friends. Just class mate friends for homework, projects, but I never hung out with them for fun.

What you are doing will have consequences in the long run. If not your children, then your grandchildren. It's religious people like you whose families end up not being religious 5 generations down the line.

Everyone has an influence, you are underestimating the influence of non jews. It's good to have friends with only good midot, but find them among the Jews, not the non jews.

out-of-towner

Wed, Jul 30 2014, 1:53 pm

Barbara wrote:

), try to make her feel better ( Thumbs Up

), keep quiet ( Thumbs Up

), or speak our minds even if it may hurt her even more ( Banging head

). I hope I haven't done the last. And I understand hurting someone without meaning to. But mdoif seems to think that her speaking her ideals is more important than the OP. And its just plain not.

Well put Barbara!

I hope everyone realizes that I too am passionately all for a Jewish education. My parents were and are Moser Nefesh for educating Jewish children, having been in Chinuch for many years, the majority of that time OOT. But I am well aware that sometimes circumstances make day school education less than ideal, either for the child or the family, or both. And this is when, yes public school becomes the next best option, perhaps even an ideal option.

Mdoif, I challenge you to attack a poster like FanaticFrummie, who is very open about her daughter being in public school...because there was no other choice! And she isn't the only one on here with that reality! Go talk to those women and tell them that their kids are swimming in raw sewage. Realize that this site does not cater to people who are exclusively as sheltered as you seem to be!

And I'm still waiting for that public apology!

suzyq

Wed, Jul 30 2014, 1:53 pm

amother wrote:

And I grew up non-religious, went to public school, had almost ALL non-Jewish friends and I'm frum today.

Scrabble123

Wed, Jul 30 2014, 1:55 pm

[quote="amother"]What you are doing will have consequences in the long run. If not your children, then your grandchildren. It's religious people like you whose families end up not being religious 5 generations down the line.
quote]

What a wonderful comment to post under amother!!

Being close minded and judgmental doesn't turn off children either, now does it?

I'm not going to argue over this topic or even state my opinion on it, but what you wrote was wrong under amother, not to mention inappropriate. You just stated an insult/threat without explaining why. At least explain yourself!!!

Barbara

Wed, Jul 30 2014, 2:11 pm

amother wrote:

Actually, I'm pretty sure that its nasty, judgmental people like you who made many Jews run for the hills, and to find love and acceptance among non-Jews. I'd be willing to place bets on SuzyQ's descendants. Yours? Not so much.

For the record, I grew up non-frum in a predominantly Jewish public school. The Jewish students were cliquey and nasty and made me feel like dirt. It wasn't until I became friendly with the non-Jews that I found myself. One of my few Jewish friends never forgave what the Jews were like -- y'know, kinda like you -- and is now a devout evangelical Christian. I got over it, and am who I am.

mdoif

Wed, Jul 30 2014, 5:02 pm

I wasted far too much time on here yesterday, so I'm going to keep iy as short as possible. Apologies to those whose comments I don't address.

My opinion is that sending a Jewish child to PS is absolutely wrong, and should never be considered as an option, even in absence of other options.

I do realize that other posters feel otherwise. Fine. אל תאמר קבלו דעתי - do not force others to accept your opinion. (Avos)

It is because of this that I didn't open any threads exhorting women who send their DC to PS to remove them at once, as such a thread would be pointless. They obviously think it's ok, and anything I write to the contrary would likely be rejected.

In this case the OP asked for advice (or at the very least wanted to discuss her dilemma) before sending her DC to PS. To this I replied in the strongest terms possible that doing so is a terrible choice - basically this option isn't.

At no point did I write anything personally offensive, so I don't see the need to apologize. Yes I condemned the act, but so what, is that wrong?

I understand that some other posters, who already send their kids to PS, might have become insulted by the way I condemned this act. This was not my intention. I never actually spoke to them only to the OP, so in a sense they were eavesdropping on my conversation with the OP.

To summarize, when the OP wrote that she is being forced by callous and wicked school administrators to do the unthinkable, I couldn't in good conscience keep quiet knowing there might still be a chance to save her DD. To my mind sending a Yiddish child to PS is akin to spiritual murder. You can argue whether that is true or not, but please at least accede that if it is true, I had the obligation to try and stop it.

----
I know there are frum Yidden who went through public school, but to use them as poster children makes as much sense as arguing cigarettes are healthy/non-harmful because some smokers lived to a ripe old age. Once again, you can argue with me, but I'm entitled to my opinion - which is actually not so radical.

I have non-Jewish neighbors and non-Jewish workmates, and I'm always polite to them. However being friends is something else. A Yid should be friends with other Yidden.

Why is it no one has a problem with the MOs taking the 'M' part to extremes - you'll find posters writing about all kinds of leniencies - yet when I take a strong stance to uphold the mesorah I'm classed as 'hateful'?

sequoia

Wed, Jul 30 2014, 5:08 pm

"I understand that some other posters, who already send their kids to PS, might have become insulted by the way I condemned this act. This was not my intention. I never actually spoke to them only to the OP, so in a sense they were eavesdropping on my conversation with the OP."

Aha. Herein lies the problem.

This is not how forums work. It's a round table of sorts. If you want to address a remark to one poster and one poster only, use the PM function. (Of course you can't if they're amother). When you post on the forum, however, by default everyone is part of the conversation. They are not eavesdropping any more than they'd be if we were all physically sitting in a circle, and you addressed one person out loud.

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