Is it possible to have a shomer negiya relationship?

Raw

Wed, Jul 30 2014, 6:46 pm

sourstix wrote:

I thank hashem when I read these posts. bec I never had these problems as a teenager. I grew up and remember how my father would discipline my brother if he picked up a hand at me or sisters when we were teenagers. and tell them of the issur of "kreiva" thats what my father called it. and I am so greatful for that. it never ever occured to me to touch another boy. I guess I was a shy girl because I never saw my siblings do that and neither my friends families. I just feel for pp when they write about it. it must be so hard. I think the beauty of the type of family that I come from is that boys and girls dont mingle. and that puts a boundry that you dont need to define so many areas, and so many problems are avoided. I am so thankful for this type of upbringing I come from.

Your brothers weren't allowed to touch you? If I understand this post correctly, I find it very odd.

amother

Wed, Jul 30 2014, 11:23 pm

I had a shomer negiah relationship in my teens/early 20s and I wouldn't recommend it, but for different reasons.

In our case, the challenge wasn't keeping shomer negia. Actually, at the time, we thought the whole concept of shomer negia was extremely romantic, that the longing and the s-xual tension, the daydreaming about what our married life would be like made our relationship more special.

The problem was that the s-xual frustration caused by shomer negia blinded us to many serious issues in the relationship. We had taken marriage, arguably the most important decision in a person's life, and reduced it to "what we have to do in order to hold hands, hug, kiss, and be physical". Shomer negia completely distorted our vision of marriage. To be fair, we were already pretty immature and naive, but I think being shomer exacerbated things and blinded us to the realities of what a huge commitment and responsibility marriage actually is, and the levels of compatibility needed for a marriage to work. We were in love, but completely incompatible religiously and in lifestyle choices and our relationship had unhealthy dynamics. If we had rushed into a marriage as soon as reasonably possible (we were 17 when we met, so I guess "as soon as reasonably possible" would have been at a minimum when both of us graduated college at 21) out of s-xual frustration caused by being shomer negia, it would have been a disaster.

chani8

Thu, Jul 31 2014, 12:05 am

Is this a hypothetical question, or are you wondering if your teen will remain shomer negiah with her boyfriend?

I think a better question is, why is it your business? You can't control what your teen does. You give advice, information, values, and then, it's up to them.

What are you going to do, punish a teen for holding her boyfriend's hand? Not 'let' her have a boyfriend? You can't control that.

amother

Thu, Jul 31 2014, 6:17 am

Eishes Chaim wrote:

Rabbi Wallerstein says; (something to the effect of) if you have a healthy boy and a healthy girl, it's impossible that they won't touch

He also said that if you go to zumba you will become a poll dancer. Also your sons will go off the derech and you'll get divorced because your husband cheated on you and it will be your fault for doing zumba.

I was once in the country and had a job early one sunday morning in a pizza shop and all the kids who would be working there were sleeping in a house close to the pizza shop to save time (and money for a cab) the next morning so we could get there on time. We were by the girls motzei shabbos bowling and then we got a ride to go to the house where we would be sleeping. Anyway he saw guys come to pick us up and he refused to let us go with them. He said if we go then we WILL lose our Vcard that night and years down the line we would thank him. I was, at that point, totally broke and I needed every penny I could earn. I ended up sleeping at that house anyway and, shockers, went straight to sleep because I needed to wake up early. I still haven't thanked him. I understand that he was trying to get me not to sleep in a free-for-all house but it p!sses me off that he was so sure that any time a guy and girl don't have supervision they will have intercourse.

amother

Thu, Jul 31 2014, 6:53 am

My husband and I started dating at 16 and weren't shomer initially because it didn't matter to us at the time (a matter of upbringing, not rebellion). When we learned more from rabbis at school, we took it seriously and from when we were 17 till our marriage at 20, we never touched. We were also very careful about yichud during that time. It helped that during Israel, we only saw each other about once a month and then dh stayed shana bet, so I barely saw him at all that year (we got engaged while he was home for Pesach). So, here are my thoughts:
It is obviously not impossible, nor were we the only ones to manage it, but it is rare. I would not advise it and would not want my own teens attempting it. It is very hard and the VAST majority will slip up. Like I said, we had some factors on our favor.
As someone above pointed out, it can really cloud your vision for marriage- you get so desperate to hit the sack that you ignore other important issues in the relationship. Of 6 couples we know like ourselves, we are the ONLY ones still married. And we've had our share of issues, but bh they were relatively minor and easily resolvable. That's siyata dishmaya that we really were compatible and our lack of due diligence did not obscure any real problems. But we saw it happen with 6 other couples so we must conclude we were simply lucky- definitely not wiser or better in any way.
For the tl;dr version: yes it's possible, but difficult, rare, and inadvisable to try.

freidasima

Thu, Jul 31 2014, 7:20 am

Why would one even want to have a shomer negiya relationship? I come from a world in which normal touch is normal, and in that world people have morals and also know what lines should not be crossed and therefore do their utmost to not cross them. You can shake hands and hug friendship like and kiss on the cheek and that's it.

I have known many girls and boys of both college age and younger who lived in this world, had boyfriends and girlfriends and never did anything with them that they wouldn't have done with their brother of the same age. no making out, no mouth kissing, no touching anywhere untoward and never taking off any article of clothing. They all got married virgins and not "technical virgins" had never seen the opposite gender without clothing before their marriage and lived a happy and good Jewish life for the past X number of years since getting married.

Hence if "shomer negiya" means never touching even to shake hands, that doesn't really go with the term "relationship" in today's polairzed society. It's much easier to keep to boundaries when one lives within a community where such boundaries are normal.

It exists even today. My single children are all virgins, boys and girls, and they live in a mixed gender society and the only naked members of the other gender they have ever seen are their neices or nephews under age zilch when they gave them baths as babies or toddlers under a certain age. (Or their own brothers and sisters as infants but other than oldest dd remembering bathing youngest ds as a baby as there are quite a few years between them, otherwise I doubt anyone remembers anyone, too close in age to remember)

FranticFrummie

Thu, Jul 31 2014, 8:03 am

chani8 wrote:

My DD understands that it doesn't make any sense to have a boyfriend until you're actively looking to get married. My mom got married at 16, because she knew she couldn't stay shomer much longer with my dad. If DD gets married at 16, I'm OK with that. (Or at 26, or at 36.) She understands that the reason we have "boyfriends", is because we are looking to find someone who would make a good husband.

By us, dating is not just something that you do for fun, it's serious business. Of course it's important to HAVE fun, but the underlying reason needs to be serious. If you're not ready to get married, then you're not ready to date. I don't know if we'll go the formal shidduch way with her. If she meets a nice guy at a coffee shop, and he's a mentch in every way, religiously compatible, etc. then so be it.

No, I would not "punish" her for holding hands. After she's bas mitzvah she's old enough to know what our values are, and she's accountable to Hashem. I'll always be there to talk to her about her decisions if she ever decided to share with me.

amother

Thu, Jul 31 2014, 9:00 am

I met my husband when I was 15 he was 18 . We started off shomer bec I wanted to be and he respected that after a while it got to hard we fell and tried again for 4 and half years till we got married . That being said my relationship was very mature but most of my friends who had boy friends didn't try to be shomer and didn't have intentions of getting married . I don't think u can compare teenage dating to college age dating . Teen dating 90% of the time is not serious at all and most teen guys aren't looking for a girlfriend to be shomer with . Wanting to touch is a normal and wen dating 3 4 years I think its impossible to hold back. If you did or no someone who did dont think it is the norm and don't assume they sayin the truth . I ended up happily maRried but I don't recommend teen Dating for several reasons . I consider my self lucky thaT I ended up happy

amother

Thu, Jul 31 2014, 9:43 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

I don't understand. Why didnt your father let your brother ever touch you? Arent brothers and sisters allowed to touch? Hug?
And why are you extrapolating from a brother-sister relationship to the dating world?

yes, there are families where brothers and sisters don't touch above a certain age. My DH's family is like this. They are a very warm loving family. Brothers and sisters don't touch. He is very comfortable around women so I don't think it affected him negatively.
His father also does not touch his daughters above a certain age (forget when, maybe when they get married). He happens to be a very warm, thoughtful, loving person but not touchy, kissy person. I once mentioned this to my sister-in-law and she didn't believe me, she said when he gives her a bracha friday night he kisses the top of her head. but when she asked him he said he doesn't actually touch, he never wanted to make a big deal about the fact.

saw50st8

Thu, Jul 31 2014, 10:38 am

amother wrote:

I know many, many, many high school couples who got married. They may not have been thinking about marriage at 15, but that doesn't mean they weren't invested in their relationships.

amother

Thu, Jul 31 2014, 10:44 am

I had a "boyfriend" in high school. Both of us were in pretty yeshivish schools with "open minded" parents who were still opposed to the relationship so it was limited to speaking every so often in public and eventually in private after my school threatened to kick me out when his mother told on me. We were only 16 and seniors because we had both skipped grades and were pretty mature. I really saw it as potential husband and knew that he would be a good shidduch even "on paper". We decided before yeshiva and seminary not to be in touch and to revisit the idea a few years later. His parents never let it happen and I was too young an naive to realize that if you want someone, you take the necessary steps to get him I.e. go take him out of bais medrash and talk business. I know he was interested in trying a shidduch too from a friend of his but I guess he was also too conventional to go around his parents. Basically there was no closure and I felt the pressure to get married so married another wonderful boy. It is still very sensitive for me because of the no closure and because I still think he would have made a good husband. All this story to basically say that....

We were shomer negiah and...
on one hand its amazing we were because I was able to tell my husband who never had any relationship with a girl that he was the first one to touch me or that I touched
on the other hand, I feel that if we had touched with the first boy, he would have probably felt more compelled to give me a real shot when it was time to date

I know the last comment sounds crazy but to explain...I had a complicated shidduch at some point during my dating life and a rabbi had someone asked me straight out "did you do anything you regret I.e. touching?" because in his experience when a shidduch was dragging it was sometime because one felt it wouldn't work but felt force to proceed because the touching in the frum world is almost like "consummating the marriage"

Not sure if it answers your question at all but nice to get it off my chest, so thank you!

Anon because its obviously private and sensitive info!!