Tznius tznius tznius, how to provide dd with a balance

Scrabble123

Thu, Aug 14 2014, 9:48 am

I think that stating something like "We strongly believe in actively promoting ethical values among our students. We teach all students to respect the rights and feelings of one another and bla bla bla" I think that basically just touches upon it.

Listing specific guidelines sounds a bit childish to me.

naturalmom5

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 11:49 am

Scrabble123 wrote:

I'd just like to share a story here, which I may or may not have previously shared. I know a woman who teaches in a chassidishe school. She's the daughter of a well respected family, and teaches a few specific classes. In one of the schools she teaches in, the classroom was one chair short last year. Everyday she came to class, and all of the girls would take their seats. No one even thought of offering it to the teacher (this is a problem on behalf of both the girls and the school). Anyways, the first time someone was absent and there was another chair available, a girl decided to put her belongings on the chair. After class, the teacher called her over for a private discussion. The girl had no idea what the teacher was trying to say. She didn't understand why one would need to offer a chair to a teacher because all of the teachers stand and none of the other teachers have ever said anything. Mind boggling. (These were 10th graders). When I was in school we stood up when teachers entered the classroom and would never place our belongings on an extra chair, even when a teacher already had one!!

But I bet they don't eat ou-d , chas v. Shalom

nomilessthan

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 12:04 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Scrabble123 wrote:

But I bet they don't eat ou-d , chas v. Shalom

naturalmom5 funny but true

black sheep

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 12:06 pm

amother wrote:

OP here, I don't really see myself at odds with hashkafos of the school, I think it's a widespread issue, and I am actually very pleased with the tznius rules, just wish there was a better balance. I am guilty of the same thing at home, focusing more on tznius, since it's so obvious and clear-cut, as opposed to behavior which is more of a gray area (is a comment really chutzpah, are siblings able to talk a certain way to each other - who started it, etc.).

I am in complete agreement with you. while I agree with most of the tznius rules defined by the schools, it really bothers me how much time and effort is spent talking about it. I don't know if they need to have an equal amount of pages talking about middos necessarily, but there should be SOMETHING else they need to talk about! and please don't tell me everything else is self-understood, so why isn't tznius self understood?

even while the schools says they value middos and torah learning etc, they really only emphasize one thing: how the girls dress.

I worry about my daughters thinking that their bodies define them. I raise them to dress tzanua, as a side point in an otherwise detailed religious life, and I worry about the vulgarity of a "frum" society who places all its emphasis on the untzniusness of girls bodies and the extremely minute details of how to cover them.

malkacooks

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 12:22 pm

black sheep wrote:

I worry about my daughters thinking that their bodies define them. I raise them to dress tzanua, as a side point in an otherwise detailed religious life, and I worry about the vulgarity of a "frum" society who places all its emphasis on the untzniusness of girls bodies and the extremely minute details of how to cover them.

THIS. I worry every day how they way tzniut is being taught and how it will affect my daughter's self esteem and body issues. My niece (who is in the 9th grade) related to me that there are girls who are anorexic or starve themselves not just to be skinny for shiduchim but also b\c if they are super slim they are more tzanua b\c they dont have curves or voluptious bodies.

I cry for those girls and worry what will be as my girls get older.

amother

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 1:04 pm

I sent to a girls school which always sends a booklet home at the beginning of the year.

I will say the name of the school - Bais Rivka Rochel in Lakewood.

The booklet has rules about tznius, but also recess behavior, behavior on the buses, in the hallways, not walking between two teachers, opening windows (need permission) Way in which a student should speak to a teacher, etc.

A LOT of general behavior and middos that are part of the school code of behavior - what's so hard about that?

Ruchel

Tue, Dec 23 2014, 6:44 am

I've been a teacher from public school to charedi.
The eating disorders are everywhere but hit the public school girls much more. Unless you would mean silent, invisible disorders not involving skinniness or not eating... then who knows

That said, the counterbalance is how YOU act, dress, talk. My 7yr old is shtarker than me. I praise it but still show and say what I think. She will find her way, iyh.

spring13

Tue, Dec 23 2014, 9:57 am

I work in a MO school with a very left-wing population. The school handbook has a special section on middot, sort of a bill of ethics that kids are aware of, that teachers are expected to incorporate into lessons throughout the year. I'm not a classroom teacher so I don't know exactly how that plays out, but it's important that they lay out some expectations in that regard (even if kids are coming into school with too-short skirts and not being called out on that).

Example - from the section titled Tzedek
"Do the right thing
Don't be pressured by others to do something wrong
Think before you act
Take responsibility for your actions
Play by the rules
Judge others fairly: give everyone a chance"

black sheep

Tue, Dec 23 2014, 12:03 pm

malkacooks wrote:

I have heard this as well, from a girls HS principal! that being thin is more tzanua shock

we don't have to worry about coming to the point of total distortion of the mitzvah of tznius; we are already there.

amother

Tue, Dec 23 2014, 12:08 pm

malkacooks wrote:

When I got married I had a 19 inch waist and 29 inch hips. In the chassidisha community where I lived I was not considered skinny because my hips were 10 inches larger than my waist. They'd prefer like 25-25-25 measurements to 29-19-29. It was crazy! Today I'm 32-22-32 and when people ask to borrow a dress and hear I wear a 0/2 they look at me like huh how can it be? you have hips! they don't understand that a woman is suposed to have a figure and they view the figure and not tzanua! and im not anorexic and I dont have an eating disorder that is just the body that Hashem has given to myself and many members of my family but its sad that a world could distort what the meaning of a woman is.

malkacooks

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 11:56 am

black sheep wrote:

I have heard this as well, from a girls HS principal! that being thin is more tzanua shock

we don't have to worry about coming to the point of total distortion of the mitzvah of tznius; we are already there.

I am so sad to hear this issue is not just in my niece's school. This is just awful. we need to counteract this. the prinicpals should be doing something!

5mom

Fri, Oct 16 2015, 1:51 am

amother wrote:

Vehaya machanecha kadosh gives us shmiras eynayim for men (also based on lo sasiri achrei... eineichem...), tznius for women, and hilchus yichud for both genders.

Men who really want to do the mitzvah of v'haya machanecha kadosh can join the army, where you get a shovel as part of your equipment when you're out in the field.

Amazing how many people will give up the chance to do a direct mitzvah d'oraiysa but insist on a maamar Chazal, especially if someone else bears the inconvenience.

Rant over.