how do people survive?

amother

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 2:07 pm

chocolate chips wrote:

I just want to say that in the African American population there is an even higher rate of cheating the system. So while it is a "Jewish" thing to feel owed to by the government and take as much as you can, it is not only Jews who do this.

Besides for this, the system in America is so screwed it practically makes it impossible to live. Literally impossible. Anyone middle class, who makes enough to "cover expenses" are slapped with huge taxes, the need to pay for Health insurance which costs beyond 2 arms and 2 legs, and no help whatsoever when in fact they are the ones who need it most.
It is practically insane. Even government officials themselves say this.

Its a catch 22. Either you are insanely wealthy (how you made the money, well we won't go in to that) or you are deathly poor but hey you get free housing and health care. Anywhere in the middle and well, you are poorer than poor but it is not acknowledge able.

First this is fundamentally and entirely not true. I don't care who told you this (and I'm African American myself ..so no she doesn't get a pass), but its just not true. It's what a lot of people want to believe so that they can justify the actions of their community while at the same time still condemning others for relying on public assistance. Yes, there is fraud in other communities, but that in no way excuses that it's become common place and encouraged in the frum community. And if you think there are a host of other communities that are going as far as to not get legally married on the scale frum people do in order to qualify for government assistance I have a bridge to sell you.

In our government we get what we pay for. We pay less in taxes than almost every industrialized nation, but it also gets us less for what we pay. If we paid more we would get more, but people don't want to do that either. There are a host of larger issues at play, including American "values" and the tax structure in this country penalizes the middle class and poor because of the varying tax rates for investment v income, but both of those things are larger discussions.

The reality is that the government is not there to support anyone sitting in learning (which I have absolutely nothing against if people have the means to support themselves), not to allow one spouse to stay home with the kids, the choice of putting your kids in expensive private school, etc. Public assistance is designed to be a safety net for our most vulnerable citizens. If you need it fine, I don't think anyone discourages anyone who validly needs social services to get them. However, this I make $80k and most of it is off the books and my wife and I are not legally married, and my house is in someone's name so people can still receive benefits is disturbing and disgusting. It's theft. Why are you cheating the government to send your kids to a school where they're supposed to be teaching them good middos.

It's hard to make ends meet, because a frum lifestyle is in general more expensive than the typical lifestyle of an middle/upper middle class American. Private education alone (rather than relying on good suburban public schools or lesser cost private schools) is a huge additional cost. Kosher food is more expensive--as is the way frum people eat. People are eating what is to non-frum people a big holiday meal...every week. Housing costs are greater, because even in less expensive communities the costs of a home within walking distance to a shul can be significantly more expensive than one 2 miles away.

For us, we saved money by buying our home (which was a multifamily). That way we offset part of the mortgage with rent from a tenant. Housing costs are skyrocketing where we live in Brooklyn and being able to control that cost does wonders (as does being able to charge an increasingly higher rent from our tenants). Our food costs are way more than I would like them to be, but my husband is a huge meat eater. We're not at school age yet, but are trying to save for that now by putting money away in an account so that way we'll be a little ahead when we get there. We're also very big into loyalty and rewards programs. It helps your money work for you. Pick things you already spend money on and you can find yourself saving in some unexpected ways.

nyer1

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 4:14 pm

so let's assume the following:

there will ALWAYS be both jews (frum, or not) AND non jews who are going to try, maybe even succeed, in beating 'the system.' whether by not claiming cash income, or by filing as single and not getting legally married, etc.

and let's assume, that we are all honest people, doing our absolute best to make realistic decisions regarding family size and affordability, lifestyles that are within our means and living in homes that we can afford, and trying to avoid credit card debt.

let's turn this convo into a practical one.

how do people survive? we can talk numbers all day about "I have X number of children and my mortgage is X and we pay this for tuition etc etc". but at the end of the day, there are so many factors to consider that it's hard to compare one amother's situation to another amother.

so, what are PRACTICAL solutions that all of you lovely ladies do to 'financially survive?'

some ideas to discuss:

buying in bulk
not buying in bulk
not buying papergoods
cooking from scratch
co-op babysitting
extreme couponing
bargain hunting
sending to public school vs. yeshiva
scholarships
offering a home service as additional income
selling used items on amazon or ebay
buying a small home or apt with a large down payment to avoid high renting cost
renting to avoid home costs
living in a less desirable neighborhood to save on taxes
living overseas or out of town
forgoing specific luxuries

which do you do? others? discuss!

amother

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 5:44 pm

nyer1 wrote:

This is great. BH bli ayin harah by husband are I are doing ok. We make a decent but not great income (combined, approximately 120k. Maybe more. As I write it I know it sounds like a lot, but in NYC its not. Also, we only spend my income (about 70k) We save all of his.

What do we do? What don't we do?

First off, I know this is often contraversial but for us it was a no-brainer. We waited to start a family. We didn't start trying till we were married for 2 years. Why? My husband was (is) an immigrant and sort of had to start his career anew here. He wasn't able to work (immigration reasons) for several months after our wedding and we felt stronger that we needed to be on more stable footing before having a baby. We are also going to limit the number we have. We will not be able to afford a large family, period. We (with G-d's help) hope we can have 2, maybe 3. I beleive in having only as many as you can afford.

Second, we live in a really small space. The same apartment I lived in before we married: a studio. I never thought we could do it (and others wonder the same) but thankfully we've done it now for almost 3.5 years (and are about to IYH add a baby to the mix Smile

Living in a small space kept our expenses way day in obvious and not so obvious ways. Obviously a larger place costs more to rent/buy but it also comes with more upkeep and things like electricity costs are much lower in a small space. We only haven't had to furnish a large apartment, which is a huge savings.

Things we dont' do: We don't have cleaning help (my husband does the cleaning) We don't use the cleaners (except for very rarely, when my husband can't get the stain out on his own): My husband does the laundry and all the ironing (a huge savings consider he goes through at least 1 button down shirt a day) We don't buy take out (ever. Even when I had the flu) or buy challah or baked goods (the markup is huge! Baking challah is so economical and baking a simple cake is so easy and cheap I could never imagine spending money on cake for shabbos) we don't take cabs (we only take public transport) We don't own a car. My husband misses having a car (he had one before we married) but it's too expensive to justify having one living in an urban area (where we wouldnt use it often) as we do. We don't go to movies or buy books (we are big library people) I don't get manicures or waxing or any of that stuff. I'm a do-it-yourself kind of girl. We don't use or buy papergoods: we eat on dishes using real flatware. We don't use those tinfoil pans to cook or reheat it: it's all Pyrex all the time here. We don't go to Costco. I don't beleive its cheaper (for a small family such as ours) Im sure we would buy much more than we need just because its there and we think we need it. In fact, I try to do the shopping myself, because I'm a bit more disciplined than my husband and not likely to be distracted by all the yummy things the supermarket has to offer.

Things we do: buy on sale. Almost all the time. I shop and cook according the the sales. What's for dinner? Let's see, what's on sale? I buy produce seasonally (so that its in season and costs as least as possible) We bring lunch from home. We sleep with the windows open (in the summer) instead of using the AC (which for the most part, we only use on Shabbos) to keep costs down. I get my shaitels washed about 2x a year. We use credit cards (and pay them in full) that earn points, which we try to put towards things like vacations (during which we redeem as many miles and/or hotel points as possible) We shop at Goodwill (I've done amazingly well there. Prada shoes for $14!) sometimes. We don't dress accordingly to trends (but rather classically) so as not to 'need' to buy new each season.

I could go on and on. For us its more than what we do and don't do. It's a lifestyle of living below our means. I dont feel deprived because I know that we are making these choices so we have a better future.

LittleDucky

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 6:07 pm

nyer1 wrote:

Great post! Can I like it more than once?
So, to make ends meet: we fell in love with an apartment but it was much fancier (and expensive) than we needed at the time. While we probably could have justified with "well we wouldn't need to move for a long time and incur those expenses..." We stuck with a smaller place.
I bake my challah/bread unless we need something like a hotdog bun. Challah can cost $4+ Each but that's more than the price of a 5lb bag of flour and I can make about 2-3 weeks worth! I also bake any cakes we need. And no mixes (I own a few boxes for those "just in case" times but havent used them...). I try to not buy premade things. They are Really marked up!
I do the drug store shopping game/coupon. People think I am nuts (I was told this to my face) but I probably spend less than half of what the average imamother spends on toiletries, soaps ect. Probably less but I haven't paid full price so don't know how much people spend...
When I find a good deal, I stockup so I don't spend full price later. But it does take some effort and time but I find the payout is well worth it once you learn the ropes. (And learn the ruls before you try or else you spend way much more than you need to and possibly more than before!)
I would love to hear some other advice!! How do other people make ends meet?

amother

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 6:51 pm

LittleDucky wrote:

I'm so impressed by all these tips! Clueless here - what is the drugstore coupon game? I spend so much at the drugstore always!

amother

Sat, Aug 16 2014, 9:34 pm

We are just coping rather than struggling, but a lot of that is because I am v careful always.

We also have a complicated situation, as dh works part time (due to career choice that means he has to do research for minimum of 2 days a weeks, which is unpaid, but he gets paid for other stuff at his work place, but it is his dream career and he is doing very well), also, I was holding down a well paid job but had to go off sick for a serious op a year ago, and have been quite disabled since, and just managing to go back to work one day a week, so my income is much much less than it was, and our needs are much more - I need cleaning help as I can't do it, and we get takeout sometimes on the day I work as I am collapsed into bed when I get home. It would be easier if dh could cook, but he isn't great at it, but he does do all the laundry, washing up and he has to come grocery shopping with me to push me round in a wheelchair so I can choose.

So cleaning help, some premade food is a necessity for us.

But, I do make my own challah, baked goods, salads, veg (never buy the precut or frozen sliced stuff). We eat chicken on shabbos only, meat never. The only fish we eat is canned tuna, except if there is a major sale. I make 95% of our food and freeze stuff, even homemade hummus, salatim, which are a big staple for us, so we do have instant meals in the freezer if I am having a bad day. I only buy sale goods, so menu depends on what is cheap this week, and I stock up on household goods when they are half price - so I have 5 boxes of washing powder right now, but won't buy for a long time. I buy dried beans/ lentils etc, never canned, as it is way cheaper.

We turn heating on when we really really need. I do get v cold, so needed more heating this winter as it made me much worse without, plus I was home a lot, normally we just heat for the morning and evening for 1 or 2 hours. We don't have AC, just a fan but get good airflow though the windows.

We need a car, or I would be housebound, but it is 13 years old and was actually loaned to us by a friend when I got sick. We pay insurance , tax etc, bh he doesn't want it back.

We have always managed to spend one income and save the other, which worked well when mine dried up for a long time. We also live in a v small (1br) apartment with a manageable rent, even though it is an expensive area.

We don't buy clothes except when we really need to, I last bought something over 18 months ago, although I love window shopping, and I don't wear makeup, get manicures, I do my own waxing at home and only wear tichels so no sheital maintenance. No gym membership, I can't sit in restaurants so we don't go out really, we have people over for board games etc.

When I'm better, iyh we will try ivf as I probably can't get pg any other way now, so we are working on saving all our extras for then.

So it isn't like we are poor, but we have to save to be able to have what we want (ie a family), and we are also v aware of how sickness impacts on income and outgoings.

I never thought I'd be someone who had a cleaner, but it is either I pay someone to do it or live in a dirty home. Crying

At least I don't need to worry about childcare or tuition right now.