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Forum -> Household Management -> Kosher Kitchen
Divider between Michig and fleish?
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 12:40 am
To the best of my knowledge unless one is using the countertop as a cutting board for bread and there are possible splatters of boiling stuff on your countertop there are really few situations that you have a real kashrus question.

I can see someone putting down raw grapes right next to an (unlit) cooktop where possibly meat or dairy boiling juices could have splattered and then if they were absorbed (your countertop has to be of the absorbent variety also) and the grapes are sitting right on it, they too might somehow be thought of as asorbing the type of stuff on the countertop. Maybe if you cut bread on your countertop or something right next to stove splatter.

But most countertops aren't absorbent, most people don't put down hot food straight on the counter etc. If the fear is that the bottom of your fleishig plate where some meat juice may have run down during the meal will now touch the top of your countertop, well the meat juice is pretty cold already. If you are plating food do you regularly splatter hot boiling food on other places on your countertop while plating? And who eats from the bottom of a plate? If something "fatarfs" the bottom of a plate are you worrying that while soaping up that plate you are actually making your sponge treif? If so that has nothing to do with the countertop actually but with your possibly spilling meat or milk juices on the side of your plate while eating, having them run down the bottom of the plate and then using a sponge on that plate, but hey, the bottom of the plate is kosher as it is cold, not hot, and hopefully you are using a meat sponge on meat plates and dairy on milk. So while it's a nice chumra, it's hard to think that it always existed in terms of Kosher kitchens for the past 2000 years...
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Chana Miriam S




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 1:12 am
freidasima wrote:
Why does one halochically even need to differentiate between counters? Do you put down hot cooked food on that counter such as boiled macaroni with bubbling cheese sauce WITHOUT A PLATE BENEATH IT? Same goes for meat, do you use your counter as a cutting board for cooked meat that is warm? From what I know if food is cold and the counter is cold there is no inyan of absorbing. If you are talking about spills or splatters, once again is it a hot spill or splatter? I can see that happening right next to a stovetop, with spillover but in general?


Agreed. This divider thing sounds like some lame thing that some Jewish Entrepreneur cooked up to sell based on the fears of the not quite so knowledgeable Jewish housewife. I hope he is enjoying getting rich while creating a whole new category of chumra.
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mo5




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 1:30 am
I have totally separate counters (different sides of the room) but I think people come up with these things to make it easier for people who come around to help.
I have lots of people come though my kitchen. I built it to be as simple as possible for people not to mix up my dishes. Part of that has to do with the counter setup.
OP- if you're worried about a 'divider' why not put a nice vase/fruit bowl/breadbox etc
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gittelchana




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 1:44 am
freidasima wrote:
Why does one halochically even need to differentiate between counters? Do you put down hot cooked food on that counter such as boiled macaroni with bubbling cheese sauce WITHOUT A PLATE BENEATH IT? Same goes for meat, do you use your counter as a cutting board for cooked meat that is warm? From what I know if food is cold and the counter is cold there is no inyan of absorbing. If you are talking about spills or splatters, once again is it a hot spill or splatter? I can see that happening right next to a stovetop, with spillover but in general?


I hope no one puts mac and cheese directly on the counter Rolling Eyes

But, if you take a hot pot of mac and cheese off the stove and put it on the counter and the counter has condensation underneath, you have a Milchig counter. If you then take a hot pot of chicken soup of the stove and place it on the counter and again, there is condensation, you now have a Treif counter. Wink
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 1:59 am
Why would condensation from the BOTTOM of the pot, which is just plain heat (the bottom of the pot really isn't milchig or fleishig, rather it's probably treif if anything or nothing) cause the counter to become anything? I can see someone putting down the top of a saucepan, face down on the countertop having been taken off a boiling fleishig pot and containing droplets of fleishig liquid falling on the countertop but even that - if one checks temperatures, by the time that condensation forms it isn't boiling and hence why would it make a cold countertop fleishig? Let's say it has garlic or onion or whatever that would do it when it were cold as well, that might be an issue, however is the din that it has to be a full piece of garlic or onion or charif or is liquid that has condensation with it in it, enough to do that? Good question.

And what if the counter is made of material that doesn't absorb in the first place?

Not so simple at all. And again, the bottom of a pot is not the top is not the lid (unless people really get spilled stuff all over the bottom of their pots and even then, as the brenner is on and is kashering it all the time, that's the reason that you don't need to have a fleishig brenner and milchiig brenner but they get kashered each time you turn on the fire to high...
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 8:11 am
freidasima wrote:
Why would condensation from the BOTTOM of the pot, which is just plain heat (the bottom of the pot really isn't milchig or fleishig, rather it's probably treif if anything or nothing) cause the counter to become anything? I can see someone putting down the top of a saucepan, face down on the countertop having been taken off a boiling fleishig pot and containing droplets of fleishig liquid falling on the countertop but even that - if one checks temperatures, by the time that condensation forms it isn't boiling and hence why would it make a cold countertop fleishig? Let's say it has garlic or onion or whatever that would do it when it were cold as well, that might be an issue, however is the din that it has to be a full piece of garlic or onion or charif or is liquid that has condensation with it in it, enough to do that? Good question.

And what if the counter is made of material that doesn't absorb in the first place?

Not so simple at all. And again, the bottom of a pot is not the top is not the lid (unless people really get spilled stuff all over the bottom of their pots and even then, as the brenner is on and is kashering it all the time, that's the reason that you don't need to have a fleishig brenner and milchiig brenner but they get kashered each time you turn on the fire to high...

OP here: Why do people have separate tables for meat and milk? I know some have glass tables and put a table cloth on for diary.
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 8:21 am
There are some things that make it simpler to differentiate between milk and meat and keep things separate, such as color coded utensils, dividers, etc, and some things that are halachically necessary, such as knowing how to kasher your oven, or if you drop milk in chicken soup etc.

It is so important to be aware of the convenience issues v halachic issues.

eg, I have green handled knives for parev, red for flaishig and blue for milchig, but just because colored handles were fashionable when we got married and it makes for fewer errors. I know what I can put down on each surface, ie cold milchig on flaishig surface doesn't turn things traif, but I prep on the appropriate surface as I am messy. I am just as careful about never ever mixing uncooked and cooked meat or eggs as I am about kashrus.

If it helps to have a divider, go for it, if it is a pain in your kitchen, don't.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 8:31 am
amother wrote:
OP here: Why do people have separate tables for meat and milk? I know some have glass tables and put a table cloth on for diary.


People have separate tables? Never seen that in my entire existence.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 8:50 am
MaBelleVie wrote:
People have separate tables? Never seen that in my entire existence.


Yes they do. The table in the kitchen is dairy. The other table is fleishig. I can think of half a dozen homes off hand that do this. I know of one home that doesn't allow dairy at all in it. I know another that doesn't allow meat. The first home is a satmar rabbi's home. The second is a BT. Both are afraid of mistakes.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 9:03 am
amother wrote:
Yes they do. The table in the kitchen is dairy. The other table is fleishig. I can think of half a dozen homes off hand that do this. I know of one home that doesn't allow dairy at all in it. I know another that doesn't allow meat. The first home is a satmar rabbi's home. The second is a BT. Both are afraid of mistakes.


I assume that's just for convenience. You can have people eating in both places or a mess in both places. But there is no halachic basis.

The other people you mention are just unfortunate, not pious.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 9:15 am
amother wrote:
Yes they do. The table in the kitchen is dairy. The other table is fleishig. I can think of half a dozen homes off hand that do this. I know of one home that doesn't allow dairy at all in it. I know another that doesn't allow meat. The first home is a satmar rabbi's home. The second is a BT. Both are afraid of mistakes.


When I was little I once had a dream that my grandfather, who was very machmir, was insisting that we build two succot for the upcoming holiday - one for milchigs and one for fleishigs. When I told my parents and grandparents the dream they all laughed. Now, after reading this thread I'm not so sure everyone would see the idea as humorous. Rolling Eyes
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 9:27 am
amother wrote:
When I was little I once had a dream that my grandfather, who was very machmir, was insisting that we build two succot for the upcoming holiday - one for milchigs and one for fleishigs. When I told my parents and grandparents the dream they all laughed. Now, after reading this thread I'm not so sure everyone would see the idea as humorous. Rolling Eyes


LOL the Satmar Rebbe has 2 sukkots. He has one for the ladies to eat in. The one for the men has no tarp. I told his wife that the only thing that she could serve would be soup on rainy days.
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 9:50 am
I have a divider between my meat and dairy sinks which are located right next to each other. It came with my kitchen but I assume the point is to prevent the dirty water from shpritzing from one sink to another (like when I wash dishes, no need to get leftover cholent in my coffee cups Wink ).

I've never heard of dividers on a clear counter top, but I guess if it makes things neater/easier for you then why not?
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 12:45 pm
amother wrote:
Do you have a divider between milchag and fleish? Is it permanent or movable. Would you put one in if you were redoing your kitchen?

No to both questions.
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Lady Bug




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 12:56 pm
Leave it up to the women.... I hear the most ridiculous things quoted as strict halacha by women) in the areas of TH and kashrus. I remember trying to convince a friend that my kitchen was kosher even though I use the same stovetop for both milk and meat. And that I was doing ok by eating both milk and meat on the same glass table (though not at the same time). And that I was still doing the mitzvah properly by taking a bath at home on Friday afternoon for mikvah at night instead of going to the mikvah to be checked. These same people look at me like crazy when I take a placemat or something as a heker when I give my baby meat while everyone at the table is eating dairy.
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gittelchana




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 17 2014, 4:05 pm
freidasima wrote:
Why would condensation from the BOTTOM of the pot, which is just plain heat (the bottom of the pot really isn't milchig or fleishig, rather it's probably treif if anything or nothing) cause the counter to become anything? I can see someone putting down the top of a saucepan, face down on the countertop having been taken off a boiling fleishig pot and containing droplets of fleishig liquid falling on the countertop but even that - if one checks temperatures, by the time that condensation forms it isn't boiling and hence why would it make a cold countertop fleishig? Let's say it has garlic or onion or whatever that would do it when it were cold as well, that might be an issue, however is the din that it has to be a full piece of garlic or onion or charif or is liquid that has condensation with it in it, enough to do that? Good question.

And what if the counter is made of material that doesn't absorb in the first place?

Not so simple at all. And again, the bottom of a pot is not the top is not the lid (unless people really get spilled stuff all over the bottom of their pots and even then, as the brenner is on and is kashering it all the time, that's the reason that you don't need to have a fleishig brenner and milchiig brenner but they get kashered each time you turn on the fire to high...


Because the Halacha is that taste transfers through wet heat. If a hot pot of milk touches a hot pot of meat and both are Kli Rishon, both pots remain kosher as long as they are absolutely dry. If there is een a little liquid in between, they are considered to be cooked together.

This is why when it comes to double wrapping something and placing it in a non kosher oven, the layers have to be dry. Otherwise, it doesn't work.

This has nothing to do with a Davar Charif.

With regard to counters that don't absorb and which materials have that status, you have to ask a Rov.

The reason you can use the same stove top for both Milchig and Fleishig is because the stove IMMEDIATELY burns whatever liquid falls onto it. (Glass top is different, this applies to other stoves).

But I agree with you that using separate tables may be convenient for some Balabostes, but it aint Halacha.
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