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Earning over 150K without a College Degree
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amother


 

Post Fri, Aug 22 2014, 1:01 pm
amother wrote:
Just to clarify , a contractor also offers a service he oversees all the work being done and is the one responsible for dealing with the workers or should any hiccups arise mid construction.
Trust me there always is something going wrong and the headache falls on the contractor to figure it
out. But let me be clear I am NOT advocating for overpricing.
I am just saying contractors need to make a living as well.


When someone has no training and experience their best favor they could do is step away. They add no value to the project The non frum manager in the field who knows how to build is the one to fix the problem not the who sold the job.

Unfortunately the people have to live with shoddy construction by General Contractors who only have connections, are out to make money, lack knowledge and have no pride in workmanship.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Aug 22 2014, 1:04 pm
amother wrote:
When someone has no training and experience their best favor they could do is step away. They add no value to the project The non frum manager in the field who knows how to build is the one to fix the problem not the who sold the job.

Unfortunately the people have to live with shoddy construction by General Contractors who only have connections, are out to make money, lack knowledge and have no pride in workmanship.


Do not generalize
There are very good frum knowleageable contractors
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 22 2014, 1:13 pm
I avoid buying in "Jewish shops" what I can find elsewhere, from clothes to food. I'm all for supporting Jewish or Israeli business but not if it means I'll need to be supported...
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 22 2014, 1:20 pm
Obviously you shouldn't hire someone unqualified. Does that really need to be said?
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 22 2014, 1:33 pm
Although this is illegal, some frum people refuse to do business with other Jews because they will have to take any conflicts to beis din, and botei dinim have a terrible success rate is some places.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Aug 22 2014, 1:42 pm
debsey wrote:
If you are a business owner - using the example of a painter - and you hire a guy off the streets, teach him how to paint, all your tricks of the trade, etc, and then have him work for you - when someone hires you at 75.00 an hour, and you send that guy whom you pay 25.00 - it is still YOU who is accountable for that work. It's your reputation on the line. The 25.00 worker doesn't have to worry about procuring the paint, the equipment, lining up jobs, dealing with billing etc.
So it's not the boss taking ADVANTAGE of the worker, it's the boss has a different job that ENABLES the worker to have his.
Undercutting the boss by hiring his workers away is a major gray area of halacha and usually prohibited. I know of a case where a sheitel macher had a live-in cleaning lady, and she trained her to wash wigs. Well, a different sheitel macher hired her for a dollar an hour more. Now, the first sheitel macher had substantial costs -all the hours she spent training in the cleaning lady, anticipating being able to have all this help. She took sheital macher #2 to a din Torah, and sheital macher #2 had to PAY sheitel macher #1 a fee for training in her worker! Which is only fair.
So I'm not so sure it's OK to hire away the worker. OF COURSE the worker will take the job (unless he has decent loyalty to his employer or the employer made him sign a non-compete) but it may not be halachically correct.
When I hire "Mr. Simcha's Painting" I assume that Mr. Simcha will send workers, but I also assume Mr. Simcha will be the final say on the quality of the project and stand behind his worker's work.


The Jewish business owner hires the sub to do all the labor. The JBO doesn't train. They sell the job to the frum community. I hired the same sub directly. I found him through my cleaning lady who is not Jewish. I see nothing wrong either by halacha or secular morals.

I don't hire workers to do construction. I hire businesses who are licensed and insured.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Aug 22 2014, 1:48 pm
amother wrote:
Do not generalize
There are very good frum knowleageable contractors
More often than not they aren't knowlegable. Do you have any idea of the shoddy workmanship on the multifamily homes. I am appalled at what people accept. Maybe they don't know any better. It is often second rate. BTW I am impressed with my frum licensed isreali electrician and my European frum licensed plumber. Not everyone lacks pride.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 22 2014, 3:24 pm
I'm an out of towner and almost always hire Shomer Shabbat businesses for home improvement projects we need to do and the reason is simple. . . they offer great service and a great product and a reasonable price. If they did not, I would not consider them.

If you want to have a 150K business in the trades, take it seriously and learn the important skills of serving the customer.
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morah




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 22 2014, 3:41 pm
SRS wrote:
Attitude is all wrong. No matter what you do and how you get there you need to approach a career with the attitude that there is what to learn and what skills to perfect. Someone mentioned basketball players and actors. Yes, you might not have an education as in a BA, but a successful long career NBA player practices and trains a good 8 hours a day and watches hours of tape and has developed soft skills in teamwork, motivation, sports psychology, taking constant critism from coaches. There is a reason that these athletes can often walk into another field upon retirement and do well.

In addition to the thousands of hours of training it takes to get to that level, the NFL and NBA players DO go to college. It's mostly a joke (D1 schools are known to inflate star athletes' grades to keep the GPA where it needs to be so they can stay on the team) but many do complete degrees at impressive institutions. Richard Sherman of the current Superbowl Champion Seattle Seahawks has a degree from Stanford. Jeremy Lin came to the NY Knicks from Harvard. Former Yankees pitcher Mike Mussina had a degree from Stanford as well.
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cookiecutter




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 22 2014, 4:21 pm
SRS wrote:
Attitude is all wrong. No matter what you do and how you get there you need to approach a career with the attitude that there is what to learn and what skills to perfect. Someone mentioned basketball players and actors. Yes, you might not have an education as in a BA, but a successful long career NBA player practices and trains a good 8 hours a day and watches hours of tape and has developed soft skills in teamwork, motivation, sports psychology, taking constant critism from coaches. There is a reason that these athletes can often walk into another field upon retirement and do well.
You are right about the required effort and skills, but as it happens some obscene percentage of athletes are bankrupt within a couple years of retirement.
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cookiecutter




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 22 2014, 4:23 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Are you aware that there are halachot for all these things? There are halachic guidelines as to how much you should spend to give business to a Jew vs a non Jew. There are also halachic guidelines as to how much a Jew is allowed to mark up products, and unfortunately many Jews do not adhere to that. Giving a Jew business when his business practices are not in accordance with halacha is nothing to be proud of.
There are halachot about these things, yes. And I have not asked a rov but I suspect that there is some difference between someone who is providing a service at a slightly less competitive price, and someone who buys things at Shop Rite and sells it at a 20% markup because we have an obligation to patronize him.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Aug 22 2014, 4:23 pm
DH makes near $500K, no college education.
Own a transportation business.

I have 2 degrees and work very part time.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 22 2014, 4:29 pm
cookiecutter wrote:
There are halachot about these things, yes. And I have not asked a rov but I suspect that there is some difference between someone who is providing a service at a slightly less competitive price, and someone who buys things at Shop Rite and sells it at a 20% markup because we have an obligation to patronize him.


I'm not really sure what you're getting at, but if you have a practical question, by all means do ask a rav.
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lavendar




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 22 2014, 5:43 pm
My dad owns a business make a lot more then 150 a year . Actually so do a lot of my uncles and its considered very normal in my community. It's a very wealthy community and majority of the men are involved in trade and other kinds of businesses. Not that many professionals almost no one has gone to college actually a lot if the " mega" ppl didnt even graduate high school . now I'm not against education at all !! and maybe for todays generation its less likely but I wouldn't say it's rare to make that kind of money without college . I think it has a lot to do with work ethic and people skills and " luck". guide your son to find something that allows him to use his god given talents for some ppl thats in business and others are better off going to college and becoming a professional . Actually my husband is in kollel does a lot of side teaching jobs and he makes more then a lot of he working friends ( no we don't get supported and I don't work ) .
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 22 2014, 6:02 pm
amother wrote:
Thank you debsey for expanding the point I was trying to make.
My husband is a strong believer that what is meant to be ours no one can take away, but it doesn't give a license for people to be unethical in business dealings.


I totally agree. I feel strongly about this, because it has happened to me. If you hire someone who works for me "on the side" you really are stealing the training I've given that person. Worst is when I hear about someone "working for me" who did a bad job. Well, when she did that job, she was freelancing - and didn't have me to direct her. Oh well, you get what you pay for! But why is MY reputation compromised? That's even more unfair.
Of course I don't have a license to unfairly mark up my business. But if I do that, people can vote with their feet by going to a competing BUSINESS, not by unethically stealing someone who works for me!
This is why I make people sign non-competes, written by both a to'en AND a lawyer.
debsey
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Aug 23 2014, 6:23 pm
If you're looking to get hired, it's probably best if you have a degree.

However, you don't need a degree to start your own business. What you do need is loads of time, patience, stamina, Emunah, and be prepared to work really hard and way more than a 40 hour work week. But even then, parnasa is up to G-d.

You can graduate with a 4.0 from a top university and still suffer unemployment. You can build up a genious business straight out of high school and be a millionaire within 5 years. Not everything is up to your own efforts.

But in general, when looking to be hired these days, a degree is pretty basic hishtadlus.
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amother


 

Post Sat, Aug 23 2014, 10:54 pm
My brother is a plumber. He struggled with learning disabilities throughout school, I think he eeked out a an elementary school diploma (they felt bad for him). He apprenticed with a plumber for a year or so in his teens and then branched off on his own when he turned 20. IT takes 7 years to get a license, which he did. I daresay he's making the most from all my siblings. So yes, even if college is not your thing, sheer grit and determination will go far.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Aug 23 2014, 11:48 pm
cookiecutter wrote:
You are right about the required effort and skills, but as it happens some obscene percentage of athletes are bankrupt within a couple years of retirement.


Anyone with plenty of salary can go broke. THAT doesn't take skill. The point was that no matter what you do, to be successful you need to hone your skills constantly and learn a variety of skills. There are reasons that people who land upon money they aren't ready to handle it go bankrupt. There are reasons why high profile people find themselves in a pickle.

But anyone who wants to build longevity in making money needs to build skills beyond their level of education. In this country, baruch hashem, if you are clean cut and build some solid skills you can build a reasonable life. I just hate when people talk about how to make BIG money without college which somehow sends a message to young people that you can do it without effort and education which are two keys to doing well even without taking a traditional route.
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amother


 

Post Sat, Aug 23 2014, 11:52 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
Most of the jobs in your first paragraph do require at least trade school. Wow there is a lot of anti intellectualism on this site. Liberal arts college isn't just about being able to make a fast buck it's also about learning things and broadening oneself. And I think that studies do show that college educated people have more job opportunities and earning potential.


Its not anti intellectualism. There are ppl who feel that college is very over-rated.
yes, you can get a good position, and a nice steady income G-d willing, but to really make it to the top has nothing to do with a degree.
Bill Gates was a h.s. dropout.
my fil made buckets of money with business sense - not a degree.
my dh is building up a business now, sans degree where really, the sky is the limit. And yes, we did need some start up capital, but nothing compared to what it would cost us to put him through 1 year of law or medical school.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 12:07 am
amother wrote:

Bill Gates was a h.s. dropout. .


Bill Gates dropped out of HARVARD University and he has an incredible history. His education had been honed since he was in a private prep school that acquired a computer in a time where most people had never even touched one. This is an outline from a book I've heard great things about and it should give people pause and make them think about making sure that their children set aside ample time to pursue an interest as it takes many hours to perfect a budding skill:

"In the first part of the book, Gladwell profiles high achievers and the historical conditions surrounding their successes, illustrating anecdotally how they prove what Gladwell calls the 10,000 Hour Rule, that mastery at anything - music, programming, sports, chess - is dependent upon 10,000 hours of practice, roughly three hours a day over the course of ten years.. In his illustrations, Gladwell shows how these individuals were provided with unique opportunities to log these critical practice hours.

In 1968, when Bill Gates was 13 years old, his school, Lakeside Academy in Seattle, Washington, acquired a computer, a terminal on which Gates could program non-stop for the next few years, a once in a lifetime opportunity to practice something that would have unforseen value. At the age of 16, Gates learned that a mainframe computer was available for free in the middle of the night at the nearby University of Washington. Unbeknown to his parents, the young Gates snuck out each night to write code between 2 a.m. to 6 a.m. Good fortune played an critical role in Bill Gates' success by allowing him significant programming practice time that very few others his age had during a critical juncture in computer history."
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