Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Seminary girls expected to wash dishes?
1  2  3  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 7:59 am
I know it sounds spoiled and japy. Dd is my oldest. She is going to seminary in a week. She is scared that she will have to wash the dishes after the meal every time she goes to eat out on Shabbos. I'm obviously not "worried" but is it true? Also she heard they are going to eat by very poor families and she is uncomfortable about it. What is going on?
Back to top

kb




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 8:03 am
It's menschlich to offer to help out during and after a meal, regardless of what country you're eating in. I ate out almost every week in seminary and never washed dishes. I helped make salads, serve and clear, but didn't offer to wash dishes because I didn't want to do that. (And it's also nice to bring a token gift like a box of cookies. NOT FLOWERS they can be a shmitta problem and the hosts will NOT appreciate it.)

I ate by a few poor families, but generally not - as a rule, she should not feel uncomfortable - wherever she is going to eat has agreed to host her. If it wasn't in their budget, they wouldn't agree. And if she does have a bad experience somewhere, she can and should tell the seminary about it.
Back to top

sky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 8:06 am
I think if you stay by a host you should offer to help with something. Many hosts are young working mothers with children and help is appreciated.
Some ideas:
- She can offer to go over Thursday\Friday to help with prep
- Offer Shabbos afternoon to take the kids out
- Help serve on shabbos, offer Friday after licht benching and Shabbos morning to help set the table or prep food.
- And of course there is dishes washing.
There must be some way she is comfortable to pitch in.

I don't think it is good manners to show up at someone's house, eat and hide out in your room at other times.
Back to top

working hard




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 8:06 am
No, it is not true.
I have had Seminary girls many times. I never expected them to wash the dishes. Most of the time, they helped clear off after the meal and left. Once, a girl offered to wash the dishes and I told her not to. Many people do not even wash the dishes on Shabbos at all.
Some seminaries use real dishes and girls rotate kitchen duty and have to wash dishes.
Back to top

Jeanette




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 8:15 am
I have heard of girls being set up with poor families and the families feeling pressured to agree.
I think if the girls are paying to be in seminary it is the seminary's responsibility to provide shabbos meals and not throw them upon the mercy of the local community. The days of "essen teg" are long over.
Back to top

slk36




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 8:15 am
In seminary itself I remember washing dishes..touranut...but not while eating out at someone's house.
Back to top

animeme




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 8:46 am
Seminary girls usually go away in pairs. What happened to me is that whoever I was with often offered for both of us to wash the dishes. I found this often happened when I went with a friend to a family they knew well. So I offered at a family I went to often and they were happy to have me do it. This was twenty years ago. If dd doesn't want to she should offer to do something else.

If she does end up doing dishes, she should know the Israeli/water conscious way of doing it, similar to how a many people shower, where you run the water to rinse, shut it to wash, and run it again to rinse, particularly if they're re using warm water from the dud.
Back to top

Imogen




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 8:48 am
We have hosted many sem girls when we lived in EY, I never asked them to help, they naturally volunteered to lend a hand, and I often found girls considered " Jappy" would be the ones keen to help and get new experiences, disproving any misconceptions we might have held. They are away from home and so taking on new things is easier to do. Initially girls may feel awkward but after a while they learn to adapt and most of all mature. If you raise a child with good middot they will naturally offer to help, irrespective of whether they do so at home. Being shy is not an excuse to hide in a room, because if you are not shy to stay in another person's home or eat someone else's food you should not be shy about lending a hand.

Eating by poor families for shabbat taught my kids to not just be be grateful but also made them aware of how many different types of home there are in the Jewish world, the food itself becomes secondary. My eldest ds always used to have a snack before he went out for a shabbat meal so to avoid taking too much or embarrassing the hosts, a tip he passed onto his siblings. Mind you, sometimes a poor family living in very modest surroundings can be the most generous with food and a hearty welcome

wishing your daughter a lovely time at sem, lucky girl, really exciting new time
Back to top

Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 9:02 am
Jeanette wrote:
I think if the girls are paying to be in seminary it is the seminary's responsibility to provide shabbos meals and not throw them upon the mercy of the local community. The days of "essen teg" are long over.

This is a problem. Boys and girls who come for the year pay a fortune and the Seminary or Yeshiva save a ton of money by farming the kids out for Shabbat (the most expensive time to feed them). In theory it's nice. The kids get a chance to see other parts of Israel and meet "real Israelis". It's nice for the hosts... once or twice, but if I'm going to cook extra (cost and work) I prefer to invite people that I know (relatives, neighbors, my kid's friends...).
Back to top

LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 10:21 am
About impoverished families.... When I was in seminary, there was a school rule that if you didn't have a place to go you had to ask by a certain day of the week and get placed by people the seminary knew. I sometimes had amazing meals, the family didn't seem so poor they wouldn't be able to feed me etc. but other times I felt that by eating, I was literally taking food from the kids' mouths. There really was nothing to eat. So if your daughter sees only 3 portions of chicken etc- don't take. One will be for dad, one for you and one for everyone else to share later. Don't eat like an American. Claim not hungry, ate a lot at whomever you ate last night etc. take the grains, challah, salad etc. tuna is expensive there. Eat when you get back to the dorm and Always make sure to have something to nosh on. Don't go to people's homes too hungry, just in case. I actually packed a few snacks if I was sleeping over at a family's home I didn't know, just in case. They never knew as If I needed to, I would eat it after we all went to bed. Then,after shabbos tell the coordinator.
Back to top

Dev80




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 10:23 am
I've hosted seminary girls a few times, either sleeping, eating, or both. I go into it not expecting anything and I've usually had girls I have some connection too. Most girls are more than happy to hold a baby but no I would not expect or ask (or necessarily want) a seminary girl to wash my dishes. I'd love her company when I'm washing up if it's not too late. Others have mentioned useful suggestions of things you can tell her to be conscious of that she does feel comfortable helping with.

I think what I find most useful is if a guest (bochurim and married friends too!) can help with the 'flow' of the meal, like if one of my children are upset to help with that child or clearing or serving but that's basically it if the kids are calm I don't even necessarily need that help.

I don't think I went to one poor family in my 2 years of seminary. She doesn't have to do 'chavayot'. I'm sure each seminary has their own method of placing girls but I don't think I was ever placed by my seminary. Between teachers, family, friends who had people they knew to go to, and other non-random places I never had a 'random' experience even though I met plenty of people. She should only do what she is comfortable with!
Back to top

yOungM0mmy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 12:30 pm
I went to one family during my year in Israel (we were placed there by the seminary), and of course we offered to help, and she said "yes, I was waiting for you to wash the dishes"! I still remember the grubby sponge, and how afterwards, I felt my hair and couldn't tell if it was my hair or my hands that felt funny. Overall, that was not such a pleasant Shabbos, but otherwise, while we offered to help, more often we helped with serving and clearing than the actual washing, except when I went to family, and of course pitched in like a regular family member.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 12:35 pm
LittleDucky wrote:
About impoverished families.... When I was in seminary, there was a school rule that if you didn't have a place to go you had to ask by a certain day of the week and get placed by people the seminary knew. I sometimes had amazing meals, the family didn't seem so poor they wouldn't be able to feed me etc. but other times I felt that by eating, I was literally taking food from the kids' mouths. There really was nothing to eat. So if your daughter sees only 3 portions of chicken etc- don't take. One will be for dad, one for you and one for everyone else to share later. Don't eat like an American. Claim not hungry, ate a lot at whomever you ate last night etc. take the grains, challah, salad etc. tuna is expensive there. Eat when you get back to the dorm and Always make sure to have something to nosh on. Don't go to people's homes too hungry, just in case. I actually packed a few snacks if I was sleeping over at a family's home I didn't know, just in case. They never knew as If I needed to, I would eat it after we all went to bed. Then,after shabbos tell the coordinator.


I went to one poor family when I was in sem. It worked out that I ate before anyway (I didnt know they were that poor- it was a relative of a sem friend of mine and I just needed a place for one meal so my friend set it up cause they LOVE guests). They served potato kugel and a half a piece of fish per a person. it was a wonderful atmosphere tho. but I felt TERRIBLE, esp cause I dont like potatos and really felt like I was wasting their food. but I also couldnt not eat. and of course they gave me a huge piece. so I cut it in half and basically ate the smaller half without chewing it (was easier for me to break off small pieces and swallow then to chew- tried that and had to stop from gagging)
Back to top

zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 2:38 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I have heard of girls being set up with poor families and the families feeling pressured to agree.
I think if the girls are paying to be in seminary it is the seminary's responsibility to provide shabbos meals and not throw them upon the mercy of the local community. The days of "essen teg" are long over.


ITA, but the seminaries obviously do not. Despite your feelings or mine, this is the system in both yeshivot and seminaries. There is zero incentive for the schools to change this system. The claim is that having to scramble for Shabbos meals is part of their chinuch, both to force them to learn how to manage on their own (I fail to see how begging complete strangers for meals is called "managing on one's own"--better they should teach them how to make Shabbos meals for themselves) and to foster social contact with the community. My personal suspicion is it's to control the school's costs. Shabbos food is expensive.
Back to top

zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 2:59 pm
Not meaning to be harsh, OP, but I'm horrified (I'd use a different word but that would be harsher yet) by your dd attitude, and, as you fear, she sounds quite spoiled. Don't your children do dishes in your house? Didn't you teach them to offer to help when they eat or sleep at someone else's house? Smart parents who want to bring up responsible adults, teach their children to do chores even if they have full time domestic help--not because the help can't do it but because it's part of the child's education. By the time they were 6, your children should have known that the second half of "When you eat at someone's house...." is "offer to help with the dishes". Not too many people would really be willing to let a six-year-old help with the dishes, but the idea should be firmly planted in their brains so that when they reach the age at which people would accept the offer, they're ready.

By the time a young lady finishes HS she should know how to wash dishes, be sufficiently versed in etiquette to know that a guest should always offer to help the hostess, and have sufficent maturity to accept that sometimes in life we have to do things we don't particularly enjoy, simply because they're the right thing to do. If your dd doesn't know all these things, it's high time she learned.
Back to top

imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 3:14 pm
amother wrote:
I know it sounds spoiled and japy.

I can't decide whether to agree, object to the word, or correct the spelling.
Back to top

Kfar




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 9:01 pm
When eating out in Israel for Shabbat as a student we always brought something for the hostess -- cookies, cakes, wine -- and brought more especially if we did not really know the financial circumstances of the hosts. I tell my kids to do this all the time they are invited out, regardless, even in US while away at college, and at least one rabbi has told me how much he appreciates this and how very few student guests actually bother to bring something -- every bit helps. And, of course, they should always offer to help in some way as well.
Back to top

Aetrsnrady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 9:31 pm
I agree with above posters re being prepared with extra food, bringing a gift, and offering to help. Sometimes it's the impoverished families that want guests the most. When I was in seminary I once ate a Shabbos meal at a family who served chulent in mini bowls. I thought it was a cute appetizer. I was shocked that after beautiful zemiros and divrei Torah, we bentched! I was expecting another course. The meal was so spiritual and inspiring and I really learned a lot about being happy with little. I know I didn't impose on this family, because they invited me, I didn't ask to come. They truly enjoy Hachnosas orchim.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 11:48 pm
imasoftov wrote:
I can't decide whether to agree, object to the word, or correct the spelling.

Op here
I'm sorry but I'm not a native English speaking.
Back to top

Health is a Virture




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 11:55 pm
this coming year, your girls should probably not bring wine to the hosts nor flowers...shmita problems. I have a few bottles of wine that I had to empty out because we didn't drink that hechsher and it was made from shmita grapes. I had to hold onto it and then dump every last drop. (unless they know hechsher that family will eat, etc.)

I am listening to how all these girls help, offer to help, etc., most of the time from my experience, the girls do not offer to help and really don't do all that much to help. They will usually help clear the table. I sometimes have girls help before shabbos--only if they offer---and I will give them choices. but, I have definitely had situations where the girls hung out upstairs and then came down for the meals. I do not remember EVER when I was in seminary HAVING to do anything for the hosts who hosted me. I did sometimes offer my services---retrospectively, I should have offered more, but I didn't want to get in their way needlessly.
Back to top
Page 1 of 3 1  2  3  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Do 6th grade girls wear nude stockings for this spring?
by amother
12 Today at 8:56 am View last post
Boro park - girls shabbos robes
by amother
10 Yesterday at 7:24 am View last post
Shabbos tights girls
by amother
1 Yesterday at 6:29 am View last post
Ateres seminary
by amother
7 Yesterday at 5:44 am View last post
Tovel dishes from shalach manot?
by hodeez
4 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 6:05 pm View last post