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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Is the school right?
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amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 9:37 pm
I am quite upset and looking for some basic reactions to this....

Ds is going into 8th grade in a small school, with about 7 other boys in his class. Most are already barmitzvahed, but a couple, including ds, are not yet.

There has always been a minyan at the school, 6,7,and 8th grade boys were required to come at 8 rather than 9 (when the school day starts), to daven. I got a letter in the mail saying that this year there is no minyan, because there aren't enough boys to make one up (the letter was also worded to imply that many of the boys are unreliable and late anyway), and they should go elsewhere to daven before school, and just show up at 9 for class.

I am very upset by this. Dh leaves very very early for work. I have a house full of younger kids and I know that all that will happen is that ds will just not daven. Or if I am on top of him he will daven quickly and half-heartedly by himself.

Am I wrong in feeling that even if boys have been late it is still the school's responsibility to require attendance for minyan and require them to be on time? To me that is just careless and lazy. I went to a coed high school where half the student body were not from shomer shabbos homes but we were required to be there ON TIME for minyan or there were repercussions! Am I wrong to expect the school to have organized and required davening for the boys, even if technically there is no minyan?? I feel like the message here is a very poor one.

Any opinions, ideas or suggestions are very welcome.
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momX4




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 9:43 pm
the school should require some members of the staff to daven with the boys. Or maybe offer breakfast to the public as an incentive to have a minyan.
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 9:44 pm
I do agree that the school seems to be wrong. Many boys will miss davening if there's no davening in yeshiva. Why can't the rebbeim and principals be part of the minyan? Maybe they can find men who live in the neighborhood and will agree to daven there. There should also be some strong incentives to help the boys come on time, for their own sake.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 9:52 pm
I think you are right on! On late start days, I'm not sure if I have ever got a kid to daven at home. It is a lot to put on parents which usually means a Mom who is changing diapers and attending to breakfast and has no time for pushing davening.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 9:55 pm
And perhaps the school should start earlier and daven AFTER a short 1st classs. 9AM is a ridiculously late start for school. I think most public schools are in session by 8AM. Early to bed, early to rise isn't just something Ben Franklin said. Getting a good start to the day is the first subject of Kitzur Shulchan Aruch if I'm remember correctly. The school should think creatively, but if they are serious about davening if needs to be part of the curriculum.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 10:10 pm
Thank you so much for your replies! I am not much of a rabble rouser so to speak, and not very confident about addressing the Rosh Yeshiva on this subject. But I find this stance so careless and cold. As if it isn't their problem and they are "punishing" the boys/parents for the boys having been late last year. Or like they don't value them at all, couldn't care less if they daven or not, and are just waiting for them to graduate and be rid of them.

I feel that if I say anything, I'm gonna be told well, the bar mitzvahed boys can't be expected to daven without a minyan, and by the way Mrs. Amother, your dear ds was late last year (only on occasion, and again, I feel that the school needed to have had repercussions for lateness).
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shanie5




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 11:14 pm
When my sons school doesnt have enough for a minyan, they are required to go to minyan at the shul across the street. Attendance is recorded there.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 03 2014, 12:13 am
momX4 wrote:
the school should require some members of the staff to daven with the boys. Or maybe offer breakfast to the public as an incentive to have a minyan.

This. Good breakfast. They used to do this at aging shuls in my neighborhood, high school bochurim would fill up the minyanim. I was actually thinking a special breakfast for the boys, not the public, since they "implied" that part of the problem was boys not showing up.

The idea to have a class first is also a good idea in theory, but could you run into zmanim problems potentially? We had that setup in seminary but that first class was painfully early. It was a short class, though, and compulsory attendance, pretty much encouraged people to get up n out before davening (except me. I was such a sleepy teenager. I really LIKED that class I just could not separate from my bed that early!)
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 03 2014, 3:06 am
amother wrote:

There has always been a minyan at the school, 6,7,and 8th grade boys were required to come at 8 rather than 9 (when the school day starts), to daven. I got a letter in the mail saying that this year there is no minyan, because there aren't enough boys to make one up (the letter was also worded to imply that many of the boys are unreliable and late anyway), and they should go elsewhere to daven before school, and just show up at 9 for class.

I'm confused by your wording. If everyone showed up, would there *still* not be a minyan? Is this a VERY small school?

If not then, yeah, why not just make davening part of school? Have school start at 8:00. First subject: davening. If you don't show up, you'll get marked off for it.

I'm with SRS. 9am is late to start school. Up and at 'em!
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 03 2014, 9:01 am
I can hear why you would have a hard time going to the administration on your own, I'm the same way. Maybe talk to other parents and if they have the same concerns you can approach the school as a group, it would also be more effective.
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nylon




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 03 2014, 9:01 am
There is actually evidence that teens should start later as their circadian rhythms are off--some public schools are flipping the schedules so the high school starts later, so the kids get a full night's sleep and are not dozing off through a 7:45 class.

Nonetheless, if boys are not making it to school minyan at 8, they are certainly not making it to a shul minyan which is even earlier! This is poor chinuch and comes across as the school not wanting to make work for themselves. There are multiple solutions to this problem: School starts at 8 and minyan is required, minyan will be after the first lesson, breakfast will be given after minyan... they seem to be "we have tried nothing and we are all out of ideas".
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SplitPea




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 03 2014, 9:12 am
I agree with everyone the school needs to think creatively and have members of the staff participate or pay a few members of the neighborhood.

I 100% disagree with you that the older boys should be made to davin without a Minyon. What is there is a boy or two that genuinely. Wants to davin with a Minyon? You want to force him to davin without one for an entire year?

The school must find a solution and simply having 3-5 staff members show up to davin with the boys then seems simple enough.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 03 2014, 9:22 am
nylon wrote:
There is actually evidence that teens should start later as their circadian rhythms are off--some public schools are flipping the schedules so the high school starts later, so the kids get a full night's sleep and are not dozing off through a 7:45 class.

Nonetheless, if boys are not making it to school minyan at 8, they are certainly not making it to a shul minyan which is even earlier! This is poor chinuch and comes across as the school not wanting to make work for themselves. There are multiple solutions to this problem: School starts at 8 and minyan is required, minyan will be after the first lesson, breakfast will be given after minyan... they seem to be "we have tried nothing and we are all out of ideas".


I read the same article about teens' circadian rhythms. Sometimes, I think school should start at 11! And since latest sh'ma today is 9:40, they certainly could do it later than 8.

I think the problem is that they will need to require a large number of staff to be in school at 8 am in order to have a minyan (remember, even if every student above bar mitzvah age shows up on time, they still don't have a minyan), and since it wasn't part of the staff's original responsibility, they're balking. They may be the ones who wait with younger children for school buses, or may have responsibilities at their own local minyans.

How many of you would happily volunteer if asked to be at work an hour early every day, without additional pay? Not me.

I actually do think its a terrible idea for a school that is supposed to be teaching our children about Judaism to throw up its hands and say, "we can't get these kids to daven; your problem, parents." Then again, I'm not all that enthusiastic about parents throwing the responsibility to the school.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Sep 03 2014, 9:30 am
Does your DH go to minyon in the morning. If my son does not have minyon in school he goes with DH which is at 6:30 in the morning. My son is 12 and he is expected to be at a minyon for all Teffillos.

Because he wakes up so early he is allowed Hot Chocolate which is a treat. Find something to reward DS.
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 03 2014, 9:36 am
A lot of men go straight to work from minyan, or they have a shiur after. Or the boys just won't wake up on time for 630 minyan because they are young and don't care, not even for hot chocolate. On vacation days the parents have a responsibility to make sure their son davens, but on a regular day, it's the yeshiva's responsibility.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Sep 03 2014, 10:21 am
Thanks again for taking the time to reply.... I am gearing up to make a call to the school.... but I will try calling the other parents first, as was suggested earlier. Also, I totally agree that boys who do want a minyan to daven should not be forced to daven without one. And that the responsibility cannot be totally on the school that parents need to be responsible too.

But this seems so way over the top to me. What if the boys were late for gemara class in the morning? Would I get a letter saying "Our gemara shiur has been cancelled. The boys are not so interested. Send your boys at 11:30 for chumash." Why is tefilla any different??

I feel so bad about this, like my ds is being cheated, like we are being cheated. Like they are sending a message... your boys are not worth our effort.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Sep 03 2014, 10:34 am
I don't think it is so unreasonable to not have davening if there is no minyan.

My husband went to a non Jewish school as a teen. He got up early, went to minyan, and took two city buses across town. (he missed the direct school bus since he was at shul) I don't think he has an exceptional character and in fact to this day hates getting up early.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 03 2014, 10:37 am
amother wrote:
I don't think it is so unreasonable to not have davening if there is no minyan.

My husband went to a non Jewish school as a teen. He got up early, went to minyan, and took two city buses across town. (he missed the direct school bus since he was at shul) I don't think he has an exceptional character and in fact to this day hates getting up early.


Kol hakavod to your husband, and probably his parents too. But this is a Jewish school and this is an integral part of Jewish living and chinuch.
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animeme




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 03 2014, 10:51 am
How many bar mitzvah boys are there? Because I've never seen a school where the rebbe's of the classes in minyan don't have to be there. Maybe they daven before, but they're there. So that's three staff members. If you have less than seven bar mitzvah boys (if it's exactly seven that could be hard too), you have a problem that might be solved by giving another staff member a perk by davening in the minyan or having her husband daven there. Maybe being mechazek the minyan gets you out of carpool or lunch or recess duty.

Alternatively, can you use a shul? Is there a shul with an appropriately timed minyan that the boys could join, supervised by their rebbe's, and then transported to school? Or a high school that might have room for them to do this?

Absent that, if you're stuck with the status quo there should at least be a monster incentive/reward system for davening/davening with a minyan, and the school can arrange transportation for the boys from minyan to school from a specific shul and provide those boys with breakfast as they would had they davened in school.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 03 2014, 10:56 am
I remember a similar situation one year when my DS was in middle school. There was an 8th grade class of 3, a 7th grade class of 8, 6 of whom were not yet Bar Mitzvah, and a 6th grade class of 9. Even if one counted the 3 rebbes, there were still only 7 for the minyan. And anyone who has ever dealt with a middle school class knows that the rebbes must watch the boys and keep order during davening; if they were to focus on their own siddurim, it would not be a productive experience. So, it's not obvious that you could count the rebbes. And the rebbes of the younger grades are needed in their classrooms.

A school might be willing to put something together an hour before school, but would you be willing or able to send your DS an hour early?

I think the most effective way for parents to make a statement is to fnd a list of volunteers who could help make up a minyan. Otherwise, each side is pointing fingers at the other saying, "no, this is your responsibility, we can only do so much."
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