Jlem rabbinical court refuses to let widow of 13 years marry

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grace413

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 6:58 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

I will add. What happens if the only brother is 3 years old? I heard that the woman has to wait a decade until he can perform chalitza. Is that really true?

And if so, again, how does this protect, rather than abuse, women?

True. Many years ago there was an Israeli movie about this, I Love You Rosa.
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%.....D7%94

m in Israel

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 7:31 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

Ahh....so yibum is no longer used as 'protection' at all? Only the option for abuse and exploitation remains?

I am not commenting on how yibum is "used" or what purpose it serves. I am just trying to clarify the Halachic reality, which is that nowadays yibum is not performed, only chalitzah.

poelmamosh

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 10:14 am

In the famous story of Shlomo Hamelech, one of the commentaries, IIRC, claim that the 2 women who were fighting over the live baby were actually MIL and widowed DIL. So the latter had a(n extra) vested interest in it being her own child. if not, she would be chained to her infant BIL for a number of years, having no surviving children and he becoming the de facto yavam.

MommyZ

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 1:37 pm

sequoia wrote:

This makes me furious.

I think if these idiocies continue in the 21st century, more and more people will abandon halachic marriage altogether and just have civil ceremonies. What is the reason to willingly participate in a system that only hurts you?

ITA

mirror

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 3:11 pm

Life is not easy.

There is someone in my neighborhood who is a very sweet woman. She has been studying to become a Giyores for many years, but can't pass the Hilchos Shabbos test. She wants to be Jewish, but she is not allowed because she has to know Hilchos Shabbos before she converts. So sad.

lkwdmommy

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 3:18 pm

Well-yeah. If she wants to become Jewish, she needs to keep Shabbos. And how can she if she does not know Hilchos Shabbos?

Not sure what you are trying to point out?

mirror

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 3:30 pm

lkwdmommy wrote:

Well-yeah. If she wants to become Jewish, she needs to keep Shabbos. And how can she if she does not know Hilchos Shabbos?

Not sure what you are trying to point out?

I am trying to point out that life isn't easy. If things don't go our way, we have to accept it.

ectomorph

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 3:41 pm

Those Rabbis, they don't understand anything about women or the modern world.

A requirement to pray to G-d every day? Why can't we send an email to G-d with the prayers inside? At the time, they just didn't have the technology so they had to actually say the prayers, but now our computers can do it for us.

Giving charity? They didn't have food stamps back then, or social security.

Now that we know about post partum depression, can't they find a way to permit women to not be nidda, instead of 6 weeks of not being able to hand each other the baby or get a hug after birth?

Shabbos? A little more flexibility about the rules would really help us integrate with the non-Jewish world, and help support the expensive Jewish lifestyle.

mirror

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 3:48 pm

ectomorph wrote:

This is really for a different thread, but not sure which.

The purpose of the Mitzvos is to help us develop good character traits. Our actions change who we are.

Davening to Hashem helps us develop trust and faith in Him.

The act of giving charity makes us more compassionate. Obviously, allowing your taxes to do all the legwork regarding food stamps and social security doesn't change you as a person.

I don't know any woman who wants to have zex when she is still sore after giving birth. The laws of Nidda protect a woman and prevent the husband from becoming insulted.

The purpose of Shabbos is to remind us that Hashem is running the world. I recommend you speak to a Rav regarding your questions.

Barbara

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 4:07 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

I am trying to point out that life isn't easy. If things don't go our way, we have to accept it.

Really?

Well, then, let's stop advocating on behalf of agunot. Your marriage fails, your ex-husband decides to hold you captive for the rest of his life so that you'll die alone and childless (while, of course, he gets a heter to remarry), then hey, things didn't go your way. Live with it.

And I'll make sure that my tzedaka goes to things like historic preservation. You can't afford to send your kids to school, feed your kids, get medical care, pay for fertility treatments, hey, life isn't easy. If things don't go your way, you have to accept it.

Mommy3.5

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 4:13 pm

the world's best mom wrote:

A- Why is this woman so eager to get married all of a sudden? She's been living with the new guy for years already and they have 4 children together- so why get married at all?

B- Her widows family is obviously mad at her. They claim she took money that was supposed to pay for medicine for her husband, and by withholding the medicine, she caused him to die. They don't seem like monsters to me- they seem like a hurting family who is very mad at the person who in essence murdered their son. She denies it- well of course- we wouldn't expect her to admit to being a murderer.

C-The only reason to post this information as far as I could see is in order to bad-mouth the Rabanim involved. It's L"H- or Motzi Shem Ra, since they are not the bad people you are making them out to be.

The family claims she witheld medicine? they claim she killed her husband. where is the pproof of that? do you know families in pain often project on the widow? I know someone personally who was blamed for her husbands death, yet his parents married him off never telling the would be wife of his condition, and that he could die if he had to preform in a regular marriage. Then when thier very sick child died, they said it was her fault because she demanded a real marital intimacy that his heart couldnt take. even though they had only had relations once during the whole marriage, because they lied to her.

Why believe blackmailer over the wife who WANTED to ppreform chaliza for 13 years? who was basically told too bad pay up or never get married, and when she did what she wanted after realizing a bunch of bitter people were never going to agree to free her, you call her the bad guy. seriously twisted.

I get it you believe Lashon hara on the women, but god forbid someone points out that rabbis got her into this mess in the first place that is motzai shem ra.

The problem here, is that rabbonim actually believe holding a women captive for money is OK. Not once did they stand up to the moral duty of ppreforming chalitza, they stood up to corruption and blackmailing her. The offered for her to pay 1/2, told her to comromise. that is so morally repugnent.

Mommy3.5

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 4:20 pm

the world's best mom wrote:

It says in the article: "She initially believed that performing the halitza ceremony would be a formality, but her father-in-law demanded that she pay NIS 200,000 for his son, the brother of her late husband, to perform the ceremony.

Shlomi Lavi’s family claim Shlomit misused money that was supposed to be used for his treatment, although she vehemently denies this."

Yes, it is all Lashon Hara. I'm not sure why any of it was posted.

But you believe that Lh, on he according to your first post. you think she deserves this because you believe she killed her husband. You only object to motze shem ra for rabbonim....

PinkFridge

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 5:46 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

I think Ectomorph was employing sarcasm. (Got it right this time, Ecto! Wink

)

mirror

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 5:55 pm

Barbara wrote:

But all the advocates won't help this woman who is trying to convert. I started Rabbi shopping for this potential giyores, and no Rabbi will convert a woman who does not know Hilchos Shabbos.

What should this woman do?

Mommy3.5

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 6:16 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

Learn hilchot shabbat....

Thats a fixable situation, it requires learning. being held hostoge in order to get yibum or a get is not in the same at all.

the world's best mom

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 7:00 pm

Mommy3.5 wrote:

Noone said that holding the woman captive is okay. I did say they claim to have a reason for doing so. They may be totally wrong, or they may have a valid point. I never said who is the more wrong party. We don't know nearly enough details. None of us do. So none of us should be blaming anyone.

My main point is that the Bais Din is not at fault. They don't believe it's okay to hold a woman captive. I'm assuming they felt very sorry for her. BUT they still can't disregard Halacha. The family is using Halacha to gain power against her, and the Bais Din is observing this. They cannot give her permission to get married without Chalitza because it's against Halacha. They may have tried to convince his side to drop the charges. They got them to lower their request from $200,000 to $20,000, after a lot of arguing. It seems to me like they were not okay with what his family was doing, but they still have no power to go against Halacha.

devo1982

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 9:52 pm

Mommy3.5 wrote:

Learn hilchot shabbat....

Thats a fixable situation, it requires learning. being held hostoge in order to get yibum or a get is not in the same at all.

Yeah, this. If this potential giyores does not yet know Hilchos Shabbos, it is incumbent upon her to learn the laws. She (presumably) has the capability to do so, but hasn't yet. She is in control of this situation whether she wishes to admit it or not. If it's the only thing standing between her and a BD willing to convert her, then there's an easy fix.

A woman who is an agunah or, in this instance, is being denied the ability to perform chalitza is not in control of the situation. The power rests with other people making choices that directly affect her life and nothing she can do (other than beg, plead, or pay money) to persuade them to give her what she wants.

Life might not be fair, but there's such a huge difference between the two situations I'm baffled as to why you would try to liken them.

zaq

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 10:10 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

Someone in my neighborhood took driving lessons for several years but couldn't pass the road test. She wanted to be a driver, but wasn't allowed because she had to know how to drive before she could get a license. So sad.

What would you have the BD do--say "that's OK, dear, you don't know the rules but it's the thought that counts"? There is already a system like that--it's called "Reform conversion".

marina

Wed, Sep 10 2014, 10:17 pm

So many participants in this thread are talking past each other. It is fascinating. Carry on.

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