Cleveland vs. Cincinnati

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Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Sep 15 2014, 11:45 pm

Cleveland has income based vouchers, but I believe not the standard vouchers given to those in Cincinnati who live in poor school districts (Cleveland had their own voucher system before Ohio's EdChoice if I understand the history correctly.)

The school is not separate in 4th grade....this year. The class is too small. The third grade was only put back together very last minute due to staffing issues, that class had been separate in 1st and 2nd. 1st and 2nd are separate, and 3rd was supposed to be. I think it's a sign of growth overall. The general guideline is to split at 24/25 kids per grade.

The community does indeed have a core of bnei torah (do you know there were 3 Mir alumni kollelim advertised, one in Lakewood, one in Brooklyn, and one in Cincinnati? lol -- I think a 4th was opening up also in the NY area last I heard, but the point is there are people here who really are bnei torah even if they're not in kollel).

The more that people come, the more the community will grow.

Minster, not minister. I don't think anyone should post a personal number on this forum, but it's easily searchable.

I highly recommend looking at cincinnatishuls.org for some more basics about the community.

amother

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 2:09 am

OP here - thank you so much for all your replies! I have just finished reading through everything and I have some questions:

1) Can someone please describe the 3 different communities in Cleveland? I am interested particularly from a hashkafic perspective.

2) Does anyone have more info on tuition breaks/vouchers in Cinci and/or Cleveland?

3) I have heard mixed things about Cleveland in terms of being "New Yorky". I don't mean to offend anyone, I really just want some clarification. Is Cleveland the type of place where people are keeping up with the Joneses and the women always top notch style, etc.? Is the type of place where my kids will "need" Venettini shoes to fit in? People who are living there, do you feel that there is a bigger focus on externals there, vs. a smaller community? Again, I really don't mean to offend anyone. I have just heard a lot of conflicting pieces of info from different people and this is important to me to clarify. I am a growth oriented person, but I think I would personally find it extremely difficult to place myself in a community where I would have to fight my natural instincts against materialism when surrounded by it.

4) What are housing/renting prices like in both places?

5) Does Cincinnati have a good kosher food and chalav yisrael selection?

6) What is the general feeling you get of the community's hashkafa and/or mode of dress in Cinci?

Thanks so much! I really really appreciate all the time everyone here is taking to answer all my questions.

Ruchel

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 7:11 am

Can Telsh refuse boys with sisters in Hebrew academy?

marina

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 7:38 am

amother wrote:

Cleveland Heights is a relatively yeshivish neighborhood. The housing here is 120-160K for a nice house, rent probably abt 900-1200 per month. The people are not wealthy, but you do need to fit in in terms of ruchniyus and it helps if your kids go to a Hebrew Academy School or Mosdos. My kids go to the more modern MO school and I also wear pants, so we totally don't fit in Smile

Beachwood is more posh and has a mix of people. Many send their kids to Hebrew Academy Schools but I would say most send to the MO Mizrachi school. People do whatever they want in terms of ruchniyus there. Our family would fit in more there, but the housing prices are more expensive. I would say a nice house runs btw 220-300 depending on the exact neighborhood, rent prob 1400-1800 per month. I think if you find materialism anywhere, it would be there. We are by far one of the poorest families in our MO school and my kids do come home and whine about it sometimes.

University Heights is in the middle. It is the broadest mix of people and probably half and half in terms of who sends their kids where. The housing is likewise in the middle with nice houses ranging from 150-250. University Heights is geographically closer to Beachwood, so most people there go to the same shuls as the Beachwood people.

The Telz Yeshiva is in a neighborhood far away (30 min)- Wickliffe. I don't know anything about it, but I get the impression it is closer to Cleveland Heights than either of the two others.

marina

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 7:44 am

Cleveland Heights does have some voucher type things, but most people do not qualify. If your child would be assigned to a failing school, and he or she is going into Kindergarten OR spent the last year in public school, you would get the same 4000-5000 break as in Cincinnati or Columbus. But there aren't many schools like that, so I don't know who meets that criteria. This is called Ed Choice http://education.ohio.gov/Topi.....ogram

There are also separate scholarships for special education students, so if your child qualifies for services you get a certain amount per year to spend at whatever school you'd like (assuming the school contracts with a special education provider, which most do) and the amount depends on the disability category. This is called the Jon Peterson scholarship http://education.ohio.gov/Topi.....rship

I am trying to think if there's another one, but I can't recall.

Ruchel

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 7:49 am

Do most people with several kids manage to get a break in Hebrew and Mosdos?

OOTBubby

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 10:07 am

Ruchel wrote:

Can Telsh refuse boys with sisters in Hebrew academy?

That would be highly unlikely. The girl's division of Hebrew Academy -- Yavne is a very respected school. In fact, I know of people whose girls went to Yavne with brothers in Telshe.

OOTBubby

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 10:08 am

Ruchel wrote:

Do most people with several kids manage to get a break in Hebrew and Mosdos?

While I don't explicitly about this in these schools, in most yeshivish schools in the US, that is the case.

marina

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 12:29 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Do most people with several kids manage to get a break in Hebrew and Mosdos?

Hebrew Academy and Mizrachi both give scholaships. I don't know anything about Mosdos.

marina

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 12:32 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Can Telsh refuse boys with sisters in Hebrew academy?

Are you asking if they will refuse or accept based on whether the sisters go to HAC? No, decisions are not usually made based on where siblings go.

But sure, a school can refuse a child even if the sisters are in Hebrew Academy or wherever else. If the child is not a good fit for the school, presumably they won't accept him.

I guess I don't understand the question.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 12:50 pm

amother wrote:

OP here - thank you so much for all your replies! I have just finished reading through everything and I have some questions:

2) Does anyone have more info on tuition breaks/vouchers in Cinci and/or Cleveland?

Ohio has an EdChoice program. In that, anyone who lives in a district zoned for failing public school is entitled to a voucher worth $4250 for each kid enrolled in private school instead of the public school grades K-2. For new residents to Ohio, older children are also eligible. This voucher does not depend on your income whatsoever. In Cincinnati, the Jewish neighborhood(s) are zoned for a district school that was graded poorly. There is a separate means test: anyone whose family income is below the 200% PVL (I think, check this up on Ohio Edchoice) cannot be charged any additional tuition above the value of the voucher, which means in essence your tuition bill is not anymore for kids grades K-8. (High school is a different voucher amount I think, and out of town yeshivos obviously don't qualify.)

This does not mean you will pay nothing -- there are school fees and obligations, but in comparison to real tuition elsewhere, it's extremely manageable.

Those who do not pass the means test do have some recourse in terms of scholarship I think if they can't pay the full amount leftover, but I don't know much about that.

For the younger grades under kindergarten, there are no scholarships given, AFAIK. This can be expensive. They do have legal standing as a daycare, however, and if you qualify for daycare vouchers through the state, you can get assistance that way. I don't know much about that.

Quote:

4) What are housing/renting prices like in both places?

Houses in Cincinnati are usually under 200K for a decent sized home. Rent is probably around $1500-$1800/month but I can't be sure. Amberley Village and Golf Manor are the main neighborhoods, with most people living in the former. Property tax there is 2% I believe -- around $4000/year for a $200,000 home.

Quote:

5) Does Cincinnati have a good kosher food and chalav yisrael selection?

Not great but manageable. Will you have what to eat? Yes. Gefilte fish is like $8/loaf, meat is a little higher but not much more than the east coast but selection is more limited. There is CY milk and cheese, and Costco carries bulk bags of CY cheese. You can easily get frozen pizza. There is yogurt. There are 2 kosher restaurants (pizza and Indian food). 2 of the supermarkets have a kosher department. There is a sizeable Lubavitch community which helps ensure CY is in demand.

Quote:

6) What is the general feeling you get of the community's hashkafa and/or mode of dress in Cinci?

HUGE mix. But not much different than I saw in Baltimore, except everyone here goes to the same school. A solid core of families from yeshiva-oriented homes and a nice group of old time plain frum families and a vibrant community with a more modern feel and a Lubavitch contingency (they have a yeshiva here) -- and everyone lives near each other and are neighbors and friendly with one another, and I don't hear the same judging type of comments I did in bigger communities. If it helps you at all, I can think of where boys are in yeshiva: Philly, Scranton, Rochester, Cleveland (Telshe I think), Baltimore (NIRC), Skokie, Chicago (Telshe), W. Bloomfield (Detroit/Mesivta of Toledo), and probably more that I can't think of right now.

MaBelleVie

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 2:58 pm

I don't know if you can easily answer this, but what other city would you compare the "type" of yeshivish people in Cincinnati with? In other words, the yeshivish population would be comparable in hashkafah/style to those in what other city?

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 3:10 pm

I can think of many OOT communities of similar sizes that would have the same "type" of "yeshivish" people...

I would say I once, maybe 10-15 years ago, I figured out a connection to Baltimore for just about everyone in the community. A large percentage has been affiliated with Ner Yisroel at one point.

If you want a stupid, superficial example, it's ok in Cincinnati for yeshivish people to wear denim skirts and no one would bat an eyelash. Not everyone does, but it's not anything anyone cares about. You can wear sheitels, or hat falls, or headband falls, or snoods, or tichels, or hats, or anything else you want to cover your hair, and no one would care. Externalities don't define people here as much as they do elsewhere.

Last edited by Hashem_Yaazor on Tue, Sep 16 2014, 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

MaBelleVie

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 3:14 pm

Thanks, that gives an idea of the flavor.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 3:15 pm

(I just added more to my post, BTW)

OOTBubby

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 3:17 pm

While I don't know Cincinnati first hand; my impression of it (mainly though meeting people at MW Agudah conventions) is that it is still a developing community. It has grown a lot in recent years and may not have reached is final "destination" -- I don't mean that negatively at all, but rather that it perhaps should not be judged on what it is right now, but on where it seems to be going.

MaBelleVie

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 3:18 pm

I was more referring to hashkafah than externalities, I kind of took the denim skirts as a given Wink

The ner Yisroel affiliation is more telling.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 3:19 pm

It's been developing and does continue to do so, and with that does come growing pains...but I think most small communities are like this. This one seems to be headed somewhere good, somewhere sustainable...

Ruchel

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 3:30 pm

We have more questions.
Bear in mind we cannot swear we can get all the papers so if you prefer helping only someone who has, it's your right. You may also be helping someone else who is posting anon or not posting.

Can someone modern yeshivish have the following:
chalav stam, denim skirt, long sheitel (weekday), kosher movies on dvd/comp, wedding ring on man.
And, what age does the average family puts on tights?

Question for both locations Wink

amother

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 3:45 pm

Very few parents in Mosdos are paying full tuition. It's the "poorest" of the schools.

Don't plan on getting EdChoice vouchers; none of the frum communities is next to a failing public school. (Cleveland Heights kids are zoned to go to Noble Elementary, which is the closest thing: it's an underperforming public school, but unlikely to dip down to being on the failing list. Oxford Elementary is about half a mile from Noble, and is on the failing list, but is too far away from the frum community.)

Someone asked about Wickliffe: it's a very small community centered around Telshe. It's a 25 minute drive from Cleveland Heights. There are families living on the grounds of the yeshiva, and other families (mostly young marrieds) living in the Bishop Park apartments, which is a maybe 10 minute walk from yeshiva. Shopping etc. is all done in Cleveland Heights or University Heights; it's not a freestanding community. Wonderful people, simple temimusdik place to be. I love it there. But, it's not a place to move to unless you have a strong connection to the yeshiva. Are you BTs? Then you might look into Rabbi Brog's program at Telshe. If your dh would learn by Rabbi Brog, then Wickliffe would be a really nice choice for you. If he's planning on working, then go to Cleveland Heights.

About New Yorkyness: some people are, some people aren't. Overall the sviva is not. Many kids are wearing Venettinis but it's not like you're picturing. There's not a cookie cutter mentality here, except by some people. I would say some of the young kollel families that move in might have more of that attitude, which is natural because they're coming from other places. But overall it's not too bad. My daughter's beloved teacher from a very well-liked Cleveland family got married recently, and started teaching in NY. Her former students felt insulted when they heard via friends in NY that the girls in the school she's teaching in now consider her quite out-of-townish.

There's no problem at all getting into Telshe if you have sisters in Yavne. Yavne has all types of girls, and plenty of families send some of their kids to one and some to the other, depending on what their kids need.

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