Are frum people socially awkward?

Ruchel

Sun, Sep 14 2014, 8:28 am

zaq wrote:

Funny you should say that. I've known people who felt just the opposite, that frum kids were chutzpadik knowitalls and they'd take subpar public school kids over bright but undisciplined frum kids any day. And aren't you both overgeneralizing just a bit? There are communities here where public schools are so excellent, people take pay cuts to move there so their children can attend those schools. There are towns where the public schools are so deplorable, people go into debt to send their children to private schools.

Yes I suppose the poshest public schools are not that way. I also think 10 years ago it was still very different.
There are still many people moving to get sectorized in a good or better public school. Or get into debt to send to private.
There are still frum kids in PS. There are also more and more frei kids in community schools.

Still, bright or not, give me a Jewish school over a PS any day, and a charedi school over a MO one too. Kids will be less spoiled at the charedi school, and less "no limit" at the Jewish school. My experience as a parent and teacher. By definition my experience is limited. I wish I still felt as I used to do about public school but my job has shown me things have changed. Not that you need to be a teacher to see society is a sick sick puppy....

jflower

Sun, Sep 14 2014, 8:48 am

Squishy wrote:

It is not baseless when it is in fact true. I assume your comment was directed to me about certain groups not using soap after they toilet. The Dr in Refuah Health Center in New Square was explaining to me how certain groups of frum people pass the MRSA germs though wash cups and towels. The center itself had a wash sink with no soap and dirty plastic wash cup with grime built up. I have used the toilets at numerous people's houses with no soap. The office building I worked in had no soap or soap dispensers even. The same thing is true at a certain restaurant. I sent my hosts into a tizzy when I asked for hand soap when I was an overnight guest and they had to borrow dishwashing soap from the neighbors. I do bring my own soap now. Try finding soap on Pesach in certain people's houses. It is not done. Certain of my guests do not use soap after they toilet but they will use the wash cup and say Asher yatzar. A few other posters as amother acknowledged their own experiences with their families not using soap. The discussion came about because Opinionated mentioned that chassidim do not have an understanding of germs. My discussion came about with the Dr because someone in my family was sick and the suspected cause was MRSA transmitted by certain folks not washing their hands after toileting.

Come to my house, please. I have soap in my bathrooms. And I'm FFB (chassidish background.)

Wow. I guess I'm the only one. No, wait. Everyone in my circles/family has soap in their bathrooms.

33055

Sun, Sep 14 2014, 9:21 am

jflower wrote:

Come to my house, please. I have soap in my bathrooms. And I'm FFB (chassidish background.)

Wow. I guess I'm the only one. No, wait. Everyone in my circles/family has soap in their bathrooms.

This proves absolutely nothing. I never said that no chassidim use soap after toileting. If I said certain chassidim dont use the Internet, you can't prove that falseness of that statement by saying you are on the Internet. I stand by my statement that in certain circles not using soap after toileting is common.

asmileaday

Sun, Sep 14 2014, 11:58 am

I think a big percentage of being socially awkward is personality, but still a small percentage, like Maya said, is due to living in an insular community.
But even within an insular community a lot depends on upbringing as well. I grew up in an insular community (Boro Park, haha) and still live in one but my parents are very sociable and friendly to everyone and that's how I interact with others as well, regardless of gender/race/religion. But people that are not friendly by nature AND were brought up not to be too chatty with the opposite gender or non jews will automatically be socially awkward/rude.
My pet peeve is the chassidish men in my building that won't say thank you when I'm holding the door for them, even when it clearly took extra effort for me to do so (coming into building with my rowdy boys that I should really be running after, but instead I took that extra few seconds to hold the door for you...) It irks me and I understand where they're coming from but sometimes I feel like their parents should have taught them better....

asmileaday

Sun, Sep 14 2014, 3:00 pm

Maya wrote:

I wouldn't call Boro Park an insular community. Not in the way that New Square, KJ and even Williamsburg are. And certainly not how it was when you were growing up at least twenty years ago.

Ok so not as insular as KJ. But insular enough that you are surrounded mostly by people your type and don't really need to interact with the world at large in a friendly way, especially non jews. We have quite a few non Jewish families in my building and I see how my neighbors all squirm and are uncomfortable around them even when their and our kids are playing outside. I on the other hand have no problem congratulating them on their new baby, asking about their 4 yr old, school, etc... But between my neighbors I'm quite the rarity.

Raisin

Sun, Sep 14 2014, 3:00 pm

Squishy wrote:

gee. Sometimes the handsoap runs out in my bathroom, and doesn't get replaced instantly. When that happens I use shampoo or shower gel or washing up liquid.

Please don't assume I don't wash my hands because there is no handsoap that minute.

33055

Sun, Sep 14 2014, 3:23 pm

Raisin wrote:

It was not one random time that led to this conclusion. It took years and close contact to realize this was common. I gave every excuse I could think of including running out of soap because it seemed inconceivable to me that people don't use soap after toileting. I had no excuses when people didn't use soap in my house when it was in plain view after using the facilities. When dc got sick the Dr explained mrsa is common in our community because of the hygiene habits. It is considered more frum (traditional? ) to use water and a wash cup.

amother

Sun, Sep 14 2014, 6:58 pm

Raisin wrote:

the "liquid hand soap" in my bathroom is shampoo. Shampoo goes on sale very often and comes in larger bottles than the stuff sold as hand soap. Liquid hand soap seldom goes on sale and even when it does, is never as good a buy as shampoo when it's on sale. The active ingredient is identical in both, sodium lauryl sulfate or one of its cousins. The rest is just packaging and hype. So when my bottle of "hand soap" is running low, I reach for the shampoo bottle and fill up the hand soap pump.

All these products--shampoo, shower gel, hand soap and washing-up liquid are essentially the same, the difference being mostly marketing. The personal-care products might have some "conditioning" ingredients absent from dishwash, but then there are dishwashes that have "skin conditioning" ingredients, too. And "conditoning" shampoo gets rinsed right out, so why bother?

mommy321

Mon, Sep 15 2014, 4:11 am

As a BT I have to say that I think -generally speaking here- frum people are far LESS socially awkward.

Yes, the staring and the shyness is there, sometimes in spades. But they are more normal in relationships and building connections, because they really have much more to do with each other than secular people have to do with each other. They are much better networkers, they know how to respond (thanks to Torah) at different stages in the lifecycle (deaths, births, etc). Frum communities are nowhere near as affected by technology that encourages anti-social behavior (sitting on a bench with earphones vs sitting on a bench talking to someone). Frum people remain close to their siblings in adulthood- this isn't always a given in Western society. I could go on. Maybe the pleasantries aren't always there, but the actual kelim to build deep and meaningful connections is there, and we have survived for thousands of years for this reason. Western society is out the door already because the home has broken down.

DrMom

Mon, Sep 15 2014, 4:30 am

mommy321 wrote:

I liked this perspective. Great post.

amother

Mon, Sep 15 2014, 6:51 am

Socially awkward is societal.
I grew up in a very middle upper class mostly white suburban American neighborhood. People were friendly cordial polite and very reserved. I thought everyone was like that.

I got married and moved to a foreign country. The social norms here are totally different. 5 minutes after meeting me, they are calling me a diminutive of my name. People kiss and hug like they've been seperated for 10 years and have finally been reunited, even if they saw each other last night.
After I met someone for the first time she offered to come to hospital when I was in labour to help.

My reserved American disposition made this all super awkward for me, and at first I thought that I was just meeting socially awkward people who have no sense of boundaries and appropriate social behavior. But I've come to realize the boundaries are different here.
Not good, not bad, just different.

zohar

Mon, Sep 15 2014, 10:20 am

amother wrote:

I don't know about the social awkwardness so much but I have sadly experienced the rudeness. I see it quite often in shops and also in general conversation with people who are nosy, untactful or intrusive. Also the other day in the shop this lady gave my mother a dirty look for absolutely no reason. Also a lot of pushing and shoving.
I feel like I don't fit in as I am very polite and a gentle, sensitive person.
I am a baal teshuva and I grew up with a different code of etiquette and manner. In school we had to say please and thank you and the teachers would say we have to hold the door open for other people. We were also taught general politeness and consideration.
I feel this is not taught in religious schools. I think some frum people are very good people but I know some non Jews who have more grace.

I grew up in lakewood and went to school there. What do you know? We were also taught to say please and thank you. And to hold the door open for anyone. We were told that when we are in uniform we are like embassadors of the frum community and that it's so easy to make a kid dust Hashemite by being polite to strangers. Also, a bus driver told me that all the drivers want to drive the frum schools because they are better behaved than the p.s. Kids and even if they are not on the best behavior, almost all the kids say "thank you, have a good day." When they are getting off the bus,

As an aside, I think that some posters here are confusing rudeness and social awkwardness. There are very socially savvy people who act very rude, and there are socially awkward ppl who are very sweet and come across as such. Social awkwardness is usually a combination of ignorance of social norms and the anxiety and nervousness that accompanies that. I also think that there are two categories of socially awkward people, 1: people who don't have the skills to navigate social situations such as ppl on the autistic spectrum or severe ADHD. 2: ppl who are from one culture and trying to fit in another. In the second case it is usually a matter of time, depending on the savviest of the individual in question.

amother

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 1:05 pm

This is an interesting conversation. I agree that frum people are not necessarily more or less socially awkward than others, but I think that there are some combinations of natural personality + specific upbringing + Jewish middos that can add up to a perfect storm of obnoxiousness.

Here's an example that comes up a lot on imamother and IRL: Someone mentions to a casual acquaintance that she's doing X, Y, or Z (it could be homeschooling, breastfeeding, not breastfeeding, going to a particular doctor, sending her kids to a particular school, whatever). The acquaintance, rather than saying, "Oh, that's nice," or even "Wow! That's interesting. How did you decide to do that?", launches a slew of strident comments and opinions about the topic: "How will your kids make friends?" or "Don't you realize you're depriving your baby of the best nutrition?" or "I could never send my kids to that school!"

I don't think this is just bad social skills. It comes from the combination. Some individual people tend to be blunt. Some communities and cultures are more forgiving of bluntness or expression of opinions. Jews are a stiff-necked people, and we tend to stick to our guns. Any of these characteristics is at least pareve and can even be used positively, but combined, they can lead to a lot of unpleasantness.

debsey

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 1:35 pm

amother wrote:

Here's an example that comes up a lot on imamother and IRL: Someone mentions to a casual acquaintance that she's doing X, Y, or Z (it could be homeschooling, breastfeeding, not breastfeeding, going to a particular doctor, sending her kids to a particular school, whatever). The acquaintance, rather than saying, "Oh, that's nice," or even "Wow! That's interesting. How did you decide to do that?", launches a slew of strident comments and opinions about the topic: "How will your kids make friends?" or "Don't you realize you're depriving your baby of the best nutrition?" or "I could never send my kids to that school!"

I don't think this is just bad social skills. It comes from the combination. Some individual people tend to be blunt. Some communities and cultures are more forgiving of bluntness or expression of opinions. Jews are a stiff-necked people, and we tend to stick to our guns. Any of these characteristics is at least pareve and can even be used positively, but combined, they can lead to a lot of unpleasantness.

It's kind of like how in Israel you go on vacation and the taxi driver says "your baby is cold. You should have dressed her more warmly!" or "You live in America. How much money do you make? If you make so much money, then you should be able to afford warmer clothes for your kids!" After a while of being appalled by the rudeness, you realize it's a certain cultural thing, where total strangers feel connected to you and feel they can comment, totally out of love.
I had that experience once on a bus. I was pregnant, and I looked green, and next thing you know, six ladies from all walks of life are giving me 30 pieces of advice, telling me I'm too thin, I look like I gained weight too fast, they see I have cookies in my bag. I should eat them. I shouldn't eat them - those cookies are the worst thing for nausea......etc. etc. etc....
Often, frum people care about each other, and feel very strongly about certain things, and then they want to share that caring and knowledge in a strong, decisive way. It comes from love. It's like - if you thought someone was about to eat poison, you'd react very strongly and decisively, right? So if you're passionate about nursing, to you, formula is poison. OH, NO, A JEWISH BABY IS ABOUT TO BE POISONED! I MUST STOP THIS...........
I agree - it generally comes from a good place, but doesn't always translate well........