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Emphasis on learning- yesheivish question
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 23 2014, 10:16 am
I have struggled with this issue for years. I have "outside the box" kids, and it has been hard to see what would work, because there are a lot of things that don't.

From what I see, that lovely story about play as a child or it will out as an adult seems to get interpreted as "until first grade."

There are more schools and more options being developed all the time, so I am hopeful that there may be a place where there is room for serious dedication to Torah learning, serious dedication to chol learning, and sufficient time to play.

Some of the MO schools used to be like that.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 23 2014, 10:26 am
amother wrote:
self-actualization- are boys taught that?
chayelle- my husband is curious how old the boys you see are.


I would say up to age Bar Mitzvah.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 23 2014, 10:29 am
chayelle-that's what I thought. so after bar mitzvah all of a sudden a kid can handle learning for so many hours. I ask seriously- trying to understand. If you say- yes my brothers, cousins, there friends etc... all did, were all fine, were all happy and it works then great, happy to hear.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 23 2014, 10:29 am
amother wrote:
chayelle- I hope you don't mind that I forwarded your response to my husband- the problem is, is the learning of gemara nowadays al menat laasot? From what he's seen it's more of here is what the rabbis said- let us try to figure out why. Most of the topics don't apply nowadays... He would LOVE it if he he could find someone who can explain what we should be learning in order to improve ourselves from the gemarah- the gemarah is Hashem's word, if Hashem decided sooo much should be discussing isha sotah for example there must be a reason- something that should be taken away from it after someone finishes learning it. He feels like noone is focusing on that and it's more of an intellectual activity.


I don't mind. But please take what I wrote to be within my own limitations. As I posted, perhaps your DH could speak to a Rav or mentor to guide him to learn something that he would enjoy.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 23 2014, 10:34 am
amother wrote:
chayelle-that's what I thought. so after bar mitzvah all of a sudden a kid can handle learning for so many hours. I ask seriously- trying to understand. If you say- yes my brothers, cousins, there friends etc... all did, were all fine, were all happy and it works then great, happy to hear.


No I wouldn't say that. People are individual.

I have a close friend who has 5 sons that are past Bar Mitzva age. Each is different. One is a big masmid and able to tow the party line, so to speak. The others - each their own. One is fabulous with kids and enjoys being a camp counselor during the summer, that really energizes him. One took a paramedic course as medicine is fascinating to him. Each of them makes time to learn according to his ability.

As mothers and also as wives, we can help our sons/husbands feel good about themselves and their abilities, and to encourage them to learn at whatever level they are able.


Last edited by Chayalle on Tue, Sep 23 2014, 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 23 2014, 10:36 am
chayelle- so he hasn't found, not that he hasn't tried. If you know anyone who learns like that I'm sure he's all ears.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 23 2014, 10:40 am
chayelle- my question is why is that the party line? Are the other sons also valued by their rabbanim? I agree role of mother and wife but I think our boys/men are also affected by what other males think of them especially the ones toted as their role models. Do you disagree?

Thank you everyone for keeping this thread respectful, I'm really looking to understand and not bash.

Understanding other hashkafas forum doesn't let anonymous posting though.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 23 2014, 10:46 am
imasinger-want to start a school Smile ?
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 23 2014, 10:51 am
That's a million dollar question.

A little OT but I remember at the Bar Mitzva of a relative, they announced that the boy had learned XYZ (don't remember what it was but maybe lots of mishnayos or something like that). My DH was telling me that it's such a big pressure on the boys, and so unnecessary, and he would never do that to his sons. My SIL claimed, though, that it builds the boys having that pressure.


I guess the party line is there to encourage and maximize the potential of those that are capable of doing so. Because learning Torah is important, so that is put up there as a goal for everyone.

In any classroom, you are going to have the kids that are the top of the class, the kids in the middle, and those that find it difficult to succeed academically. Does that take away from the individual value of any of these kids, if they are not in the top 5% of the class? Of course not. They have a different role to play.

I B"H have 3 beautiful, capable DD's B"AH. One of them is academically gifted. Does that make her better than her sister, who has golden hands and is so talented in other areas?

Our boys are affected by what others think of them, yes, but more than anything their own self-confidence will determine the course of their life. A person who respects himself and feels good about himself will be respected, by Rabbanim, by peers, etc....
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eschaya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 23 2014, 6:51 pm
OP - I think so much depends on the community where you live. More OOT communities, even very right wing ones, will provide broader educations and perspectives for their students, as well as allowing for focus on things that aren't gemara. One reason why we moved away from E"Y (among many other reasons) when our kids became school age was that DH felt that in America they can play ball and still be considered good boys whereas the Israeli yeshivish system does not allow for this. Obviously we moved to a community that aligns with our hashkafos.
But also you have to remember that yeshivishness is a culture. It is not a direct reflection of what Hashem wants. Of course the yeshivish and chareidi systems really are trying do ratzon Hashem, but it isn't a perfect system. There are major flaws in it. And one flaw is this single-minded focus on Gemarah (to the exclusion of Nach, even some Torah, hashkafah, mussar, Jewish history, machshavah, and even the parts of the Gemara that are not the "yeshivishe mesechtos") that is producing very brilliant, focused, but uni-dimensional men. Forget about secular studies... many parts of yiddishkeit are being neglected in the narrow pursuit of being a lamdan. Recently DH was giving a series of classes and decided to focus on the perakim of tehillim members of our shul were saying after davening. He confided in me that he was amazed at the beauty and depth in it (obviously he was doing it with all the associated mefarshim and some gemara tie-ins too) and was almost embarrassed that he had never, ever looked at tehillim as a piece of Torah in this way. He always tells me that when I have time he would love to learn Navi with me... because throughout school he never learned it!
And OP - he agrees with you. The unilateral focus on gemara learning is NOT healthy; it is very important he believes and he really enjoys it (and from what I hear he is really good at it!!), but it's a cultural element of the current yeshivish system, not a reflection of what and how Jewish men should be fulfilling limud hatorah. No two people are the same, and no one strict, narrow, regimented system of talmud torah should therefore be forced upon every very different person. And it was not like this in past generations either.
Practically, look around for right wing communities (since it appears that is where you align yourself) that do not have the extreme, narrow focus that many yeshivish tri-state communities do. OOT is a good start. Also, OOT communities tend to provide more time and space and acceptable activities for boys. My boys - and the kids in our communities, even the most yeshivish ones - ride bikes, play ball, go on trips, read a lot. And our schools encourage it. Yes, as they get older they have longer mandated school hours, but the chinuch system here is much more aware of boys needs and provide them with adequate down-time.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 23 2014, 7:06 pm
eschaya wrote:
OP - I think so much depends on the community where you live. More OOT communities, even very right wing ones, will provide broader educations and perspectives for their students, as well as allowing for focus on things that aren't gemara. One reason why we moved away from E"Y (among many other reasons) when our kids became school age was that DH felt that in America they can play ball and still be considered good boys whereas the Israeli yeshivish system does not allow for this. Obviously we moved to a community that aligns with our hashkafos.
But also you have to remember that yeshivishness is a culture. It is not a direct reflection of what Hashem wants. Of course the yeshivish and chareidi systems really are trying do ratzon Hashem, but it isn't a perfect system. There are major flaws in it. And one flaw is this single-minded focus on Gemarah (to the exclusion of Nach, even some Torah, hashkafah, mussar, Jewish history, machshavah, and even the parts of the Gemara that are not the "yeshivishe mesechtos") that is producing very brilliant, focused, but uni-dimensional men. Forget about secular studies... many parts of yiddishkeit are being neglected in the narrow pursuit of being a lamdan. Recently DH was giving a series of classes and decided to focus on the perakim of tehillim members of our shul were saying after davening. He confided in me that he was amazed at the beauty and depth in it (obviously he was doing it with all the associated mefarshim and some gemara tie-ins too) and was almost embarrassed that he had never, ever looked at tehillim as a piece of Torah in this way. He always tells me that when I have time he would love to learn Navi with me... because throughout school he never learned it!
And OP - he agrees with you. The unilateral focus on gemara learning is NOT healthy; it is very important he believes and he really enjoys it (and from what I hear he is really good at it!!), but it's a cultural element of the current yeshivish system, not a reflection of what and how Jewish men should be fulfilling limud hatorah. No two people are the same, and no one strict, narrow, regimented system of talmud torah should therefore be forced upon every very different person. And it was not like this in past generations either.
Practically, look around for right wing communities (since it appears that is where you align yourself) that do not have the extreme, narrow focus that many yeshivish tri-state communities do. OOT is a good start. Also, OOT communities tend to provide more time and space and acceptable activities for boys. My boys - and the kids in our communities, even the most yeshivish ones - ride bikes, play ball, go on trips, read a lot. And our schools encourage it. Yes, as they get older they have longer mandated school hours, but the chinuch system here is much more aware of boys needs and provide them with adequate down-time.


I love your post.

And your reasons for moving back from E"Y are the reasons why so many people I know don't end up going or don't end up living there long term. As my sister said - there's no middle ground.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 23 2014, 7:40 pm
I have this discussion with my husband and friends all of the time. I grew up in a MO family but I have become RW YU. I don't feel comfortable with MO schools, but yeshivish schools are too much for me. My husband doesn't mind it as much as me. Right now our children are in a very wonderful community elementary school which is run by yeshivish administration, but student body is a wonderful mix of frum students. My boys do get a chance to play ball a little, even though the school day is a little long. I am concerned about high school (even though my oldest is only in 3rd grade), because I don't want his secular studies to be limited and I want him to be able to have options after high school and not just follow one derech because that it what everyone does. So OP - I here you, and I think about it all of the time.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Sep 24 2014, 6:04 am
op here- yeah the emphasis on the gemara is also something we scratch our heads about- how'd you guess Smile. Why is that the culture, how'd it become like that? Why is it more of a tristate thing? Seems like the more concentrated the jewish population the more likely to concentrate on gemara.?

Also how to respect the rabbis who continue this system when you don't feel like this is how yidishkeit is supposed to be?

rt wing yu mother- that's basically where we are coming from also although I didn't exactly grow up modern. My daughter is currently in a school like what you describe bu since the hanhala is yesheivish he thinks its just a matter of time. I'm still trying to figure out why hanhalah is usually at least one step more to the right?
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causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 24 2014, 9:17 am
amother wrote:
causemommysaid: why does NOONE start a yeshiva or beis yaakov that is THEIR hashkafa. I'm sure there are people who are wealthy enough. I mentioned to my husband that in my experiance at least the hanhalah of a school is usually at least a little bit more to the right then the student body. For example if most of the parents don't cover their hair, the principal's wife will etc... we were trying to figure out why that was.


they do. and then as the years go by it either turns into a typical bais yaakov/yeshiva or it becomes MO. usually it moves to the right.

so many schools became like this.

prospect park in brooklyn

betzalel in lakewood

ateres in monsey

shulamith in brooklyn/now five towns or Long Island

need I go on?
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amother


 

Post Wed, Sep 24 2014, 9:30 am
causemommysaid- I realize that they go to the right or left but why? thats my question- I actually went to shulamith lol!
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