The poor amother with the rich in-laws needs to vent

Capitalchick

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 8:54 am

Learning wrote:

I think it is not normal that the in laws spend so much money on vacations etc but their son and grandchild don't have enough to eat. It seams very odd. Did they promise anything before you got married? Do they like you?

Wrong. It's not abnormal. There are families who believe that, if you're old enough to get married, you're old enough to manage your own finances and work to get through rough patches.

The OP keeps explaining her thoughts about her in laws, and I read them all, but I still think she's dead wrong. It's their money. They can do whatever they want with it. What seems like a waste to the OP (big windows) is something that was desired and affordable to her in laws. It's their money. You can't judge, no matter what your circumstances are. They have every right to burn their money if they want.

Moreover, it's one thing to say to parents "there's a cash *flow* issue and we need a $300 loan to tide us over until next week, when we can pay you back when our salary gets paid. But if your situation is such that you're down to your last $100 dollars...and there's no relief in sight, what you're really looking for is a consistent handout. That's not fair to the in laws and not their responsibility.

There are food banks. Can you get some of your weekly groceries from there? I haven't seen that option raised here. It's not fun....in fact, I'm sure it's downright awful, but nobody needs to starve. Just go and get what you need and be grateful that it's there. And when your situation improves, you can be the one to donate to the food bank and help others.

SRS

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 3:18 pm

There are so many threads on the same sort of theme (parents/in-laws have money and we don't) and I'm going to suggest an approach that might get them to work with you. An important thing to remember about people with money is that after recognizing the bracha and mazal and barring unusual circumstances, if a person has acquired some real wealth backed up by dollars, not just a show of wealth for the neighbors backed up by debt, they usually got there through consistent hard work and frugality spanning over many, many years. They've been dreaming and planning for years and now they are doing!. They are going on vacation? Great, they probably skipped tons of vacations they dreamed about over the years. They spent more on windows for an edition? That type of calculation comes out of a different pocket in their mind anyways and they didn't go this and that so they could make it to this point. And chances are, they want to see you make it to this point when you are 60!.

Many of these parents with wealth who have children who put the cart before the horse. Sometimes the parents put the kids of a path of the cart before the horse, sometimes not. Clearly you have the cart before the horse. I don't say this to be hurtful, but if your husband is in college and you have a baby and children you are paying day school tuition for a kid or kids, the cart of way out there.

You need help, no question about it. So here is what I suggest in terms of requesting help from people who are not volunteering it in a number of steps:

*Get every single thing on paper from income to expenses to debts so you know exactly what you are talking about when you approach everyone you are going negotiate with.

*Start working on a budget and home balance sheet that is going to improve your financial position every single month. Cut expenses in every single area so no one area hurts too much. Cut down on utilities, gas, good and especially prepared foods like challah, etc.

*Identify any expense (or income) that could be negotiated and go in to negotiate with facts and ideas on how a negotiation is mutually beneficial. So ask for a raise, speak to the school and show them the problem laid out on paper with your plan.

*Consider cutting the BIG expense. Yeah, that would be tuition. If a year in public school would straighten things out on your end and make yeshiva a long term possibility, maybe it should be on the table (but that is just me).

*Identify any expense that family or friends could help you out with in way that does not force anyone to provide direct monetary outlay. If you pay for evening babysitting, form an exchange with a group of friends. On your list is laundry. Is there someone that would be happy to let you use their laundry machines if you helped them with their laundry (an elderly neighbor) or could you use your in-laws machines?

*Seek some counseling from mesila or another volunteer organization or someone that your shul's Rav can recommend. Read some books on frugality. Brainstorm.

After you have made a very serious effort, approach your in-laws with a proposal that will help you to reach independence. I'd approach them with remorse as in "we have really messed up. . . we've run up credit card bills. . . we've miscalculated along the way. . . .we know you don't owe us anything and we've been reluctant to ask. . . .in the last 3 months we have paid of $XXX of credit card debt by taking the following steps. We have cut expenses and increased income to get to this point, barring horribly unforseen circumstances by the end of year 1. We are committed to continuing on this coupon cutting, favorite food sacrificing route until we are debt free and able to reach some serious financial milestones. We really hope we can brainstorm with you on how to get there and possibly even tap you for a little help to propel us forward now that we have realized that we got ahead of ourselves and want to correct course before it is too late."

I have a feeling that a remorseful approach that is open to brainstorming and cheering on successes could result in some help. But people who have "made it" are reluctant to throw money without a ROI and I have a feeling they are no different.

Capitalchick

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 6:41 pm

SRS wrote:

Brilliant

SRS

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 9:13 pm

Thank you and I had one additional thought while running some errands today which is approach both in-laws and parents. I get the feeling that most parents of adult children needing help don't want to be the only ones taking responsibility because they feel put upon. So the couple, should they approach his parents also approach her parents. I don't think it really matters that one set might be wealthy while the other might only be average. Brainstorming and non-financial help or minimal financial help like running an extra load of laundry can come from either set of parents. So if you want help make changes, fess up, express remorse, and be open to help of all types (even criticism). But I really think that many parents will help in some way if they are approached with an attitude of oops, we are changing, and we need your support to change.

Even if the support that gets offered it not financial, perhaps it will come in the form of being sensitive and the couple just won't be asked to bake cookies for a simcha or pitch in for a gift knowing that such is a bit much pressure for a couple trying to dig their way out of a hole.

amother

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 9:39 pm

OP here.

So you have some theoretically good ideas. However, I can't see many of them being much of a help, unfortunately. You say to make note of everyone we owe money to. Fine. That's the credit card, our landlord, and now the phone company. The landlord is waiting patiently, the credit card is charging interest, and the phone company is shutting our phones. One expense will be gone then. There's not much more expenses we can cut down on. I do not have time to make challah. I work and have little kids. Our gas and electric are included in the rent, as a flat rate. I will not consider putting my kids in public school. A yeshiva education is not a luxury IMO. I can't do laundry at my in-laws- they live a half hour drive from me and we don't have a car. I don't know of any elderly neighbors who want a woman and her kids coming to do their laundry in the evenings after work. I can, however, try to be more frugal when I buy food. I'm proud to say I did my weekly shopping today and kept it down to $80.57. Now I have $20 left for laundry. I am planning on taking on another part time job for the coming school year, which should help.

You say to ask my parents to help, even if they are "average". Well, my parents are not average. They are poor like us. They do give us money because it breaks my mother's heart to see us struggle, but it is money she doesn't have. Asking her for more would be criminal.

amother

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 10:42 pm

amother wrote:

Your mother's heart is breaking, but she can't afford to help you more because she doesn't have more.
You are struggling and see how absolutely horrendous it is to live without.
Please PLEASE PLEASE remember these feelings and break the cycle for your children. DO NOT let them fall into this insanely common drum trap.
1) Give them the best education you can - an education that will open any door for them.
2) Value secular education and understand it to be the real path toward financial security.
3) Encourage your daughters and your sons...BOTH...to finish high school and pursue real post-secondary education (either college degree that will lead to a well paying trade, or a university degree and a profession).
4) Understand that the path of getting married young, having kids and THEN trying to get an education so that you can make money is just a recipe for disaster. It may be 'the way things are done', but it causes so so many problems. Education ---- then marriage ---- then job - - - - then kids.

SRS

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 12:50 am

lovingmother wrote:

The thing that I find really weird is that usually people who are wealthy and have big fancy houses, would be embarrassed that their kids and grandkids are walking around with holes in their shoes. It doesn't usually fit into their wealthy lifestyle

From the *in-law's are wealthy and aren't sharing* posts it seems that the pattern is actually the poorer parents are the ones who are emotionally hurt by the grandkids that are "deprived" while the more well off parents aren't and they are the ones trying to help.

Honestly, I don't think any of this is truly cut across economic lines. But I would venture to guess that family's that fit the description of the "Millionaire Next Door" probably draw a distinction between themselves and their adult children whom they have usually tried to set free because part of building and maintaining a certain amount of wealth or just plain financial health is recognizing where they end and you begin. People who look around at what this one has and isn't sharing tend to expend unnecessary energy.

I'm not a grandparent yet, but the plan here is to set the kids up to be independent. But that means after we've done our parent stepping out of the way. The kids will have to live with their own decisions at some point.

SRS

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 1:09 am

amother wrote:

It is always of help to know where your money is going and what your assets and debts are. This is Money Management 101 for households, small businesses, and large corporations. It is also your negotiating tool. Can you walk into your children's school tomorrow and present to them 6 months of financial data showing income, expenses, and the balances owed at the end of each month and their increase or decrease? People want to help. But getting help starts by being able to absorb advice, not dismiss it outright. There is a very good chance that if the school is willing to work with you more that they will want a sound accounting if you are already paying very little in comparison with the average cost per student or tuition costs (which you have not indicated).

amother wrote:

One expense will be gone then. There's not much more expenses we can cut down on. I do not have time to make challah. I work and have little kids. Our gas and electric are included in the rent, as a flat rate. I will not consider putting my kids in public school

So do I and I haven't purchased a challah since 2004 or 2005. I make my challah dough in less than 15 minutes and bake it later in the day. Making challah didn't come naturally to me. Then I discovered a simple recipe and it changed things around. If you need an extra $200 plus a year in your pocket, bake your own challah. I'm sure someone would be more than happy to get you $4 of Costco yeast which will make you an entire year's supply of challah if you just freeze it.

amother wrote:

I will not consider putting my kids in public school. A yeshiva education is not a luxury IMO.

If the school shares the same opinion, will they negotiate? What is your long term plan for keeping them in school?

amother wrote:

I can't do laundry at my in-laws- they live a half hour drive from me and we don't have a car. I don't know of any elderly neighbors who want a woman and her kids coming to do their laundry in the evenings after work.

Have you asked around? When we were in an apartment, if I did laundry at night, I did not take my children. They went to bed, my husband was home, and I went to the basement with the laundry and a book. . .. . or perhaps your husband could do laundry and study at the home of an elderly man.

amother wrote:

I can, however, try to be more frugal when I buy food. I'm proud to say I did my weekly shopping today and kept it down to $80.57. Now I have $20 left for laundry.

That is excellent. I am a big believer that cutting food costs is the difference between making it and not making it. My friends of similar circumstances that share seem to spend somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 more on food than we do. It is probably why they have a car loan and we don't. There is serious savings by cutting back and cooking smartly.

amother wrote:

I am planning on taking on another part time job for the coming school year, which should help.

Goodluck.

amother wrote:

You say to ask my parents to help, even if they are "average". Well, my parents are not average. They are poor like us. They do give us money because it breaks my mother's heart to see us struggle, but it is money she doesn't have. Asking her for more would be criminal.

I would agree with you that if they are already giving money they don't have, you should not ask. However, I do think you should open up to them about trying to turn around your situation. Helping a family turn around their financial situation doesn't only have to mean offering money. It can be offering emotional support or being part of your team via non-monetary support like cutting extra coupons, watching the ads, baking challah with you, or visiting the consignment store for you and being an extra set of eyes for things you need (I often buy barely used shoes for my kids for around $5 a pair).

amother

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 11:21 am

I just went through this and the older threads (furious etc) and I have to say Im flabbergasted that anyone would compare the two of you---
you need money to get on your feet and should possibly ask a rav to approach ur in laws on ur behalf and try and see how they can help you in a substantial way, while you would have to buckle down and possibly offer some transparency, if youre struggling for food you need this!!
The other threads made me want to gag and feel very sorry for the OP and her kids, they are growing up with this feeling of entitlement that is beyond unhealthy

however ur not asking for a house, you are asking for help while working very hard to be independent...I know many ppl who would give to ppl in your situation especially if they were their kids. Its impotant to ask for specifics and be open about how hard its been- I.e. weve been struggling with food can you give us 100 dollars a week for a year so that food is never an issue?

Coming from a girl whos daddy paid for her siblings downpayment etc. however brought us up well enough that we dont think of him as an ATM and do not expect these things! we respect that it is his money and his choice.

but when someone needs help to live its a diff story.
I know for one of my siblings my ma puts money directly into grocery account because that was an issue (ie they couldnt manage money and it would disappear )