Aliyah Q's - Please help!

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 2:52 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

THIS. Also, don't ever underestimate how fast children pick up language. A three year old will take to Hebrew like a fish to water.

Even my 11yo, who is in public school, picked up tons of Hebrew when we were in Israel for 3 weeks. I'm going to hold her back a year, and I know she's going to catch up very quickly. They may even move her back up to her regular grade if she catches on really fast.

It's always the adults who have the hardest time learning. (You'll know you're an Israeli when your kids start speaking Hebrew to each other behind your back, in hopes that you won't over hear them and understand what they're plotting!) Wink

This is a stereotype. Usually true, but definitely not a given. We have a neighbor who came a year ago. Their youngest daughter, exactly 3 years old, is in special gan because she is not picking up the language very well at all.

And not even older kids or teens all pick up the language so easily. It completely depends on the kid.

Sanguine

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 3:17 pm

amother wrote:

Yes - but I am not sure if sending my English only speaking 3 year old to gan with 31 other students is really the best thing for him.

You're making a very big mistake if you're holding him back. What are you waiting for? Do you expect him to sit for English lessons? I remember when my 3 year old niece came on aliya. She went into gan. They were playing. She knew how to do that Very Happy

So she started playing too. That was over 20 years ago but everything followed smoothly. The ganenet knows what to do with Olim. In no time you'll be asking your son to explain Hebrew phrases to you. Send him. Come back Chanukah time and tell us how he's exactly like all the other kids in gan.

Sanguine

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 3:24 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Older kids have a harder time. Three year olds pick it up. Assuming the child doesn't have some sort of learning disability - What's a learning disability in a 3 year old? even 3 year olds have learning disabilities. They may not be obvious at 3 unless they're in a harder than usual situation. And it's important that the ganenet is on board. More patience and extra explaining for this child. Making sure he knows where to be. Make sure he knows where the bathroom is Very Happy

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 3:29 pm

Sanguine wrote:

Sanguine, but I am saying I know this kid. And as I started writing this I thought of two other 3 years who went to gan safa because they were having trouble with the language. It does happen. And, no, there were no learning disabilities, just trouble with the language. Sometimes it is not just more patience and explaining to a child. And this is not always possible for a class with over 30 children. Thats why gan safa is wonderul if needed.

ora_43

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 5:25 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Sanguine, but I am saying I know this kid. And as I started writing this I thought of two other 3 years who went to gan safa because they were having trouble with the language. It does happen.

You're saying you know multiple kids who were exposed to both Hebrew and English from infancy, but were only able to learn English?

Are you sure that's the situation? It sounds bizarre.

A lot of kids are in gan safa for trouble with language. But that's trouble with language, period, not with just one specific language. Usually if a kid's in gan safa it's not that they speak one language fluently, but struggle with another. IOW - not so relevant to immigration.

ora_43

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 5:30 pm

m in Israel wrote:

But I know that when my son was approved for speech therapy there was a few month waiting period for a therapist to become available at almost all the places I called.

I'm pretty sure that's because the relevant politicians aren't bothering to fund the number of therapists that are needed in the public system. If you're willing to go private, the waiting period gets much much shorter.

OP, do you speak Hebrew? I think that's a huge factor in how easy it'll be to find a job, if not the factor.

m in Israel

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 5:42 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Actually, I'm pretty sure that is NOT the case. First of all, I'm not sure what you mean by the "public system". I am not talking about therapy through the misrad hachinuch. I am talking about the Kuppat Cholim. These are private clinics that have deals with the Kuppat Cholim to take their payments -- I just had to pay a co-pay. But the funding was per session, not per therapist. Once the child is approved through histapchut layeled, the Kuppah is obligated to pay until you meet your maximum number of sessions for the year, and in fact if you are unable to get a therapist from their list within a certain amount of time, they are then obligated to reimburse your for the expenses of going to a private therapist. So actually it is in their best interest to have enough therapists available -- but they are just not there. (Again, I am talking about RBSA -- I am sure this is not true in all neighborhoods. And I am talking about therapists who are willing to work for what the Kuppah approved agencies pay which I am sure is a lot less than a good private therapist can charge. And finally, I would imagine you need a certain level of Hebrew language skills as well to get a job with one of these agencies.)

m in Israel

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 5:47 pm

ora_43 wrote:

You're saying you know multiple kids who were exposed to both Hebrew and English from infancy, but were only able to learn English?

.

She is not talking about kids exposed from infancy -- the discussion is specifically OLIM -- those whose first language in English and are being exposed to Hebrew for the first time at age 3.

And I agree with Shabbat that the line that everyone says "kids pick up languages very quickly, by Chanuka they will be speaking Hebrew" is NOT true about all kids, even young ones. My cousin teaches in a gan here in RBSA where many of her students come from homes where English is the only language in the home and they are getting their first exposure to Hebrew in her gan. She says that a significant number take almost the entire year to become comfortable in Hebrew, and the ones who speak fluently by Chanuka are the EXCEPTION, not the rule. (Again, talking about students who already speak a fluent English but have not been exposed to Hebrew until the age of 3.)

Of course that doesn't mean it isn't the best way to go -- but I definitely understand someone preferring a smaller group as their child's first introduction to Hebrew.

Sanguine

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 5:58 pm

m in Israel wrote:

but I definitely understand someone preferring a smaller group as their child's first introduction to Hebrew.

Is there an option like that? I agree that a 15 child gan would be better but it should still be a totally Hebrew gan. Not a gan of only Olim where the ganenet speaks a mixture and explains everything in English.

Why is everyone up so late?? Slichot or waiting for the meatballs to cool to put away?

ora_43

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 6:05 pm

m in Israel wrote:

She is not talking about kids exposed from infancy -- the discussion is specifically OLIM -- those whose first language in English and are being exposed to Hebrew for the first time at age 3.

She mentioned kids who are already in gan safa at age three. So either they were exposed to Hebrew from age 1/2, or they were put directly into gan safa without a year of attempting to learn Hebrew a different way.

Quote:

And I agree with Shabbat that the line that everyone says "kids pick up languages very quickly, by Chanuka they will be speaking Hebrew" is NOT true about all kids, even young ones. My cousin teaches in a gan here in RBSA where many of her students come from homes where English is the only language in the home and they are getting their first exposure to Hebrew in her gan. She says that a significant number take almost the entire year to become comfortable in Hebrew, and the ones who speak fluently by Chanuka are the EXCEPTION, not the rule. (Again, talking about students who already speak a fluent English but have not been exposed to Hebrew until the age of 3.)

Of course that doesn't mean it isn't the best way to go -- but I definitely understand someone preferring a smaller group as their child's first introduction to Hebrew.

It depends what you mean by "speaking Hebrew." I think complete fluency would be a bit much to expect by Chanuka, but IME many if not most immigrant kids that age have basic Hebrew skills at that point (ie, can more or less get their point across).

Maybe RBSA is different because many of the students come from homes with the same second language. If you have kids from America, Russia, Ethiopia and France they all have to learn Hebrew to speak to each other, but if they all speak English (or all speak Russian, etc) maybe that slows things down? (I don't know, just an idea)

ora_43

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 6:09 pm

Re: speech therapists, I'm talking about going through hitpatchut hayeled and the kuppah vs. going straight to a private speech therapist and paying 200 nis/session (or whatever) out of pocket.

They are only required to reimburse you after something like 3-6 months. IOW, after a long enough time that many people can't afford to wait that long. I think it's very much financially in their best interest to make people wait (short-term, anyway. long-term is a different story).

m in Israel

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 6:10 pm

Sanguine wrote:

There definitely are such options here, but they are private and therefore expensive. I know of quite a few Hebrew speaking private 3 year old gans in RBSA. The main reason parents send is because of the smaller class size. I actually considered sending my son to one when he turned 3 because he had no real exposure to Hebrew before that and I was nervous about his ability to pick up the language in a class of 32! (In the end financial considerations won out, but if I had any objective concerns about his language skills I probably would have paid the extra money).

m in Israel

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 6:18 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I admit to finding the system confusing, but I still don't see how they control the wait. Here in RBSA, for example, the main agency that provides therapy services is Mercaz Rakefet. They are a private amuta that accepts Kuppah payments. They also accept private patients (I.e. if someone was not approved by the Kuppah, or exceeds their number of sessions or is here on some other visa without Kuppah coverage, etc.) The evaluation is done by histapchut layeled, and then you bring the evaluation to Rakefet and they put you on their waiting list. The kuppah actually recommends you contact a few different agencies (there is a biggish one in RBSB as well I don't remember what it is called), so you can get a spot wherever one opens first. I am pretty sure the Kuppot do not in any way limit the number of patients the agency can take on. (Of course the agency probably prefers to give spots to private patients, so the waiting list is longer, but if the agency had more therapists available they would definitely rather you be in therapy even through the Kuppah than to be on a waiting list.)

wispalover

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 7:03 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

People said that about my 5 yo too. This is simply NOT TRUE. Not every single child will "pick up Hebrew" immediately. It is great you 11 yo did (although I recall you saying she is very good at languages), and it is true MOST kids will, but if your child has any kind of a disability in English I cannot recommend making ALiya.
My son is 5- we moved when he was 4- and he had incredible, incredible difficulty in Hebrew and we ended up being advised by several professionals to move back because he needed to be in an english only environment. Feel free to message me, OP, if you need more info.

Peanut2

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 9:11 pm

OP is a speech therapist and I hope she knows something about language development.

As for the rest of us...

I am familiar with this both as the child and the parent. I grew up bilingual and moving at age 4 was hard emotionally and language-wise. Yes, it helped me be truly bilingual, but it can be very difficult to switch languages. And I cannot over-emphasize how important the emotional part is.

wispalover

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 11:20 pm

Peanut2 wrote:

You are correct, of course.

I am just sick and tired of hearing blanket statements like "he will be speaking Hebrew by Chanuka; she will pick it up in no time; just wait and see- fluent by Pesach". No, no, no. You cannot say this is true for every single child- it simply isn't always true. It is doing a huge disservice to those who come here for info to say EVERY CHILD picks up hebrew in no time. No, not every child picks up Hebrew. Not every child who does pick up Hebrew will choose to use it (one of my friends has a child who understands fluently, but still, four years on, refuses to speak a word in hebrew to anyone and is isolated socially) etc etc. . Not every child is the same!
By all means, give examples of your experiences, but giving generalized statements is very misleading.

DrMom

Wed, Sep 24 2014, 12:50 am

I still think that -- for most children -- it's best to be forced to learn a second language earlier rather than later.

I say this based partly on my experience with my own children, who didn't speak (and barely heard) a word of vernacular Hebrew until they entered gan at age 2-2.5. No, they didn't become fluent by Hanukkah (maybe they're just slow?), but they became fluent quickly.

It's easier to make friends even with a language gap when kids are small (and some not so verbal anyway) than when they are older, and expected to express themselves verbally, and expected to read.

Besides, in RBS there are likely to be English-speakers in gan, so it will help ease the transition.

catonmylap

Wed, Sep 24 2014, 1:00 am

At 3, I would expect the Hebrew experience to be less stressful than at an older age. I would not expect a child who is speaking English well to have a hard time picking up Hebrew. A kid who is already struggling would be more likely to have issues... In any case, it's early enough, that if there are language issues, there is time to get enough help that they will be fine or at least in a regular class by 1st grade...