RCA rules all Rabbi Freundel conversions still valid

ElTam

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 12:00 pm

Quote:

RABBINICAL COUNCIL OF AMERICA ISSUES STATEMENT REGARDING FREUNDEL MATTER

All Conversions Remain Halachically Valid

Announces Other Steps to Ensure Integrity of Future Conversions

New York, October 20, 2014 – The Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) today said that since the arrest last week of Rabbi Barry Freundel of Washington, DC, it has been working assiduously to address the many challenges that its members and their communities now face.

Rabbi Leonard Matanky, President, and Rabbi Mark Dratch, Executive Vice President, said, “First and foremost, our hearts continue to go out to the individuals who were converted to Judaism by Rabbi Freundel whose trust was violated and who have worried about their personal status. We pray for the welfare of all victims, including the many women who used the Kesher Israel mikvah for taharat hamishpacha (family purity) purposes, and for the continued strength and healing of the Kesher Israel community, which is a vibrant center of our sacred Torah and that is suffering greatly at this time. We also feel for the Freundel family and offer them our support during this difficult personal time.”

Today the RCA is able to announce that the Beth Din of America – under the leadership of Rabbi Gedalia Dov Schwartz – has concluded as a matter of Jewish law that conversions performed by Rabbi Freundel prior to his arrest on October 14, 2014 remain halachically valid and prior converts remain Jewish in all respects. This ruling follows a review of the charges contained in the court documents that have been released to date (including the criminal complaint, search and arrest warrants, and accompanying affidavits) and applicable Jewish law with respect to the status of prior conversions.

ElTam

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 12:02 pm

Chief Rabbinate looking into only those conversions performed after the video camera was put in. All others valid.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-.....21804

Quote:

Should the Chief Rabbinate reach the conclusion that conversions performed by Freundel are no longer valid, sources said, the matter would be addressed with the rabbinical court responsible for the Washington D.C. area where the ousted rabbi served. Only those conversions performed during the period when Freundel allegedly had hidden cameras installed in the shower stalls near the synagogue’s mikveh, or ritual bath, would be reviewed, they added, noting that the validity of those performed before was not in question.

Barbara

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 12:12 pm

ElTam wrote:

Chief Rabbinate looking into only those conversions performed after the video camera was put in. All others valid.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-.....21804

Quote:

I'm going to blow a gasket here.

I'm not a convert. My father is a Levi. My mother's father (a"h) was a Kohen. I clearly trace my history back a little ways. So I don't have a dog in this race.

But what happened to "once someone converts, she is a Jew, and the fact of her conversion is no longer discussed."

How dare the Chief Rabbinate toy with people's lives in this way. Men and women, marriages, children who were born to Jewish women (who just happened to convert under this Deviant).

THIS is why I cannot support the "Chief Rabbinate." THIS is why I have so many difficulties with Israel.

This is cruel.

imasinger

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 12:51 pm

I have the opposite perspective.

I'm sure the intention was not to be cruel. Quite the contrary.

I could easily see more than one person contacting the RCA and asking them whether there would be a retroactive issue with their conversion under the circumstances.

Taking the time and care to research the matter thoroughly shows the geirim that were affected they really matter, and that the court wants to help them.

I'm glad that they could state definitively an opinion that will hopefully put those who were concerned at ease.

grace413

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 12:56 pm

imasinger wrote:

WADR, I think you misunderstood. The RCA has done IMHO the correct thing, stating that all the conversions are valid. The Israeli Chief Rabbis are not accepting this stance and claiming that conversions done after the cameras must be reviewed. Not only does this potentially re-victimize people, it directly tells the RCA that the Israeli Rabbinate does not respect them.

Barbara

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 1:07 pm

imasinger wrote:

The RCA gave a definitive opinion, which is good and kind. (Not that I'm in the mood to give kudos to the RCA just about now, since it was well aware of this situation for years. ("The leading Modern Orthodox rabbinical association says that it knew in 2012 that Rabbi Barry Freundel acted inappropriately in his role overseeing conversions, but that it chose not to bar him from working with converts and did not inform his synagogue." Read more: http://forward.com/articles/20.....QiwyO)

The Chief Rabbinate is ignoring the RCA's decision, and stating that even though the RCA has decided to accept those conversions, it is going to "look into" the conversions that occurred after the cameras were installed (which was when ... oh, no one knows), and make its own, independent decisions.

So, Christina converts in 1990, and become Chana. She marries in 1992, and gives birth to Malka in 1994. Malka makes aliyah, and marries Yossi in 2014. Her conversion is ruled OK, because no one thinks that the cameras were installed until 2008. But in 2020, its revealed that there were cameras there since 1989. You're going to tell Chana that the past 30 years are meaningless, and she's not a Jew? Tell Yossi that he committed an aveira in marrying Malka, because she's not a Jew? Kick their kids out of school?

Barbara

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 1:09 pm

grace413 wrote:

The Chief Rabbinate doesn't respect the RCA. Never has. Its the Chief Rabbinate that imposed all of these ridiculous restrictions on US conversions, because it doesn't respect the RCA.

Not that I respect the RCA just about now.

happybeingamom

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 2:17 pm

Barbara wrote:

I agree that you can't retroactively go back and change a geirus status. The issues it will cause will be horrifying.

Barbara

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 2:27 pm

marina wrote:

I'm just asking. Don't get all pished off, k?

What justifications are there ever to invalidate a conversion because of the rabbi performing it? Are there any ever? What if you find out the guy is mechallel shabbos? Eats treife? Rapes children?

He's secretly Christian, and requires that all converts accept Je sus Chr ist as their personal lord and saviour. And they do.

Other than that, not a darned thing should ever invalidate a conversion. Ever.

happybeingamom

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 2:27 pm

marina wrote:

Your question is legitimate. Does anyone have the right to invalidate a geirus. The only right I think someone might have is not to accept Rabbi So and So conversion but they better have legitimate reasons or other wise they would be violating V'Ahavta Es HaGer.

mille

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 2:31 pm

marina wrote:

I am not an expert, but I believe the idea is that the beit din must be composed of three shomer mitzvot men above bar mitzvah age. If they are committing aveirot, they are not shomer mitzvot, so the beit din itself was not a valid beit din. I have no idea if there is actually any halachic backing to revoking a conversion in general, although I think no... Once you dunk, you're Jewish, no take-backsies.

That said, I think it's absolutely absurd to "revoke" a conversion. For pretty much any reason.

MaBelleVie

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 4:12 pm

Conversion is a technical halachic process, like everything else in orthodox Judaism . If it later comes to light that at the time of conversion there were serious halachic flaws, even allowing for all possible leniencies, why not revoke? Unfortunately for so many people who get duped by sham batei din, not every conversion is halachically acceptable. I'm not aware of any halachic ruling that states that once someone is converted we are not allowed to look at the circumstances of the conversion and must accept the convert as a full fledged Jew. The consequences for invalid conversion are too serious to gloss over.

amother

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 4:41 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Do you feel only this way about gerus or also about gittin or other eidus in marriage? I think the halacha is fairly clear that we don't go out of our way to seek trouble and should we, we surely will find creating all sorts of nightmares. When it comes to gerim we are supposed to not terrorize them at the least and it seems to me that continual questioning is exactly that. Do divorcees of "sham batei din" constantly have their children from second marriages questioned? No. Gerrim seem to have to put up with a lot of cr*p.

Raisin

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 4:48 pm

What makes someone not shomer mitzvos? Talking lashen hara? Getting angry? Treating a widow or convert unpleasantly? Eating in pizza hut? Eating shrimp? Having an affair? Looking at [filth]?

I find it hard to believe that all Rabbanim on Batie Din are perfect tzaddikim.

Spying on women in a bath house sounds pretty familiar - didn't David Hamelech do this with Bas-sheva?

marina

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 4:54 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

So, theoretically then, rabbonim who committ serious crimes would have their converts' conversions revoked? If so, what halachic flaws/crimes do you envision this applies to?

Barbara

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 5:01 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

So if it turn out that your maternal great-great grandmother was a convert, but the beit din was tainted somehow, you think that your great-great grandfather, great-grandfather, etc should all suffer in olam ha'bah because they intermarried. Your husband, too. He should immediately divorce you, and shun your children.

Everything that they thought of themselves. Everything that you thought of yourself. Gone.

These people aren't examples in a textbook. They are real, live people, who have made a commitment in their lives. We need to honor that commitment.

marina

Mon, Oct 20 2014, 5:04 pm

Raisin wrote:

This could be a slippery slope. Didn't Pinchas kill people?